Albanian propaganda – Alexander the ‘Albanian’ Part II

 

This is in response of the new Albanian claims found on – Alexander the Great is Illyrian?.

1. ‘Women Warriors (P): A History’ By David E. Jones

Firstly we should note David E. Jones is a cultural anthropologist as himself says therefore he has nothing to do with history. Anyway the quote Albanians used “In the land of Illyria (present-day Albania), home of Philip’s first wife Eurydice” doesnt reveal anywhere any connection between Alexander and Albanians. Its well-known except obviously to Albanians that Alexander’s mother was Olympias, not Eurydice/Audata.

The fact that David E. Jones lacks historical knowledge is shown in the paragraph prior to the selected quote where he stats :

“The wife of Alexander the Great, queen Cratisepolis of Sicyon, fought beside her husband..”

Cratisepolis was actually wife of Alexander, son of Polysperchon, not Alexander the great.

2. “The ancient World” by Joseph Ward Swain

The selected quote “Alexander’s mother, Olympias was the daughter of an Epirote chieftain ruling in what is now Albania” doesnt prove anything else than ancient Epirotes who were non-Illyrians ruled also a part of what is modern Albania. Again nothing to prove Alexander was “Albanian”.

3. “Hellenic history” by By Charles Alexander Robinson, George Willis Botsford

The selected quote proves actually as it say itself “he was of Greek descent”. The claim “from both parents he had some Illyrian (albanian) blood” is easily refuted as the book was published in 1948, therefore the author/s were not aware of the newest discoveries (ie Molossian decrees) that proved undoubtedly the Greek origin of Molossians (epirote)

4. Ancient Greece: A Political, Social, and Cultural History by Sarah B. Pomeroy

The selected quote points out a blanket claim about Eurydice being “Illyrian” while there is even today an ongoing discussion about the origins of Eurydice. The foremost authority in ancient Epirote and Macedonian history NGL Hammond dismisses the “Illyrian” origin of Eurydice as ficticious. Again no evidence of the so-called Illyrian origin of Alexander.

5. The Journal of Race Development by George H. Blakeslee and G. Stanley Hall.

For starters Blakeslee wasnt related with ancient history and his personal opinion has been refuted by world’s authorities in ancient Macedonian history since noone shares his beliefs.

6. Greek Leaders By Leslie White Hopkinson

Its at least Ironic for Albanians to bring as “evidence” this book where its obvious even by its title Alexander is considered a Greek Leader. However again there is no evidence associating Olympias with…albanians that at the time werent existing even in the region.

7. Albania: Eye of the Balkan Vortex By Lou Giaffo

Lou Giaffo, an Albanian himself isnt considered anything related to “unbiased neutral source” as also his desperate attempts show, therefore his input is totally worthless.

8. The Burden of the Balkans By Mary Edith Durham

Mary Edith Durham isnt related with History but she is a traveller. Her books are good only for coffee table discussions but not history. Still no credible historical source that points out an ‘Albanian’ origin of Alexander.

9. “Researches in the Highlands of Turkey: Including Visits to Mounts Ida, Athos, Olympus, and Pelion, to the Mirdite Albanians and Other Remote Tribes” By Henry Fanshawe Tozer

Again the Albanian nationalists bring as somewhat “evidence” of their allegations, a geographer/traveller NOT an historian. It seems the lack of finding sources among historical community brings these miserable attempts.

10. Childe Harold, ed. by H.F. Tozer

Same as above. Tozer as non-expert in history but in geography isnt considered today as a credible source.

11. Alexander the Great: the meeting of East and West in world government and brotherhood By Charles Alexander
Robinson

Same as #3.

12. “Albanian Identities: Myth and History” By Fischer

Its at least amusing albanians nationalists to quote…inside the books of Fischer the chapter of “the myths of Albanian nationality” where actually Fischer writes down the illusions of Albanian nationalists in the first quarter of the previous century.

13. “Myths and Realities in Eastern Europe” By Walter Kolarz

Walter Kolarz is another classic example of non-historian that Albanian nationalists use as somekind of credible source.

14. The Battles That Changed History By Fletcher Pratt

In reality W.W. Tarn is the only historian related to ancient history so far but still he lived and published his books in the first half of the previous century therefore hadnt got the chance to be aware of the newest archaeologic evidences (ie Vergina tombs) that changed dramatically the views over Alexander and ancient Macedonians as a whole. His ideas and theories are considered somewhat outdated.

15. Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation By John Shea

John Shea according to his own statements is considered an extremely biased pro-skopjan source, unrelated to history therefore non-credible. For more about him visit John Shea exposed

16. Black Lamb and Grey Falcon: A Journey Through Yugoslavia By Rebecca West

Its at least comical to bring as ‘evidence’ the English-Irish feminist writer of fiction novels, Rebecca West. Someone must be really desperate.

17. Conquest and Empire: The Reign of Alexander the Great By Albert Brian Bosworth

At last an historian!!! The problem with the Albanian nationalists is that nowhere A. Bosworth says anything about an “Albanian” origin of Alexander. Better next time read what you bring in table.

For more about Bosworth views on Alexander and Macedonians visit
HistoryofMacedonia Blog – Bosworth

18. Alexander the Great By Lewis Vance Cummings

As previously stated there is an ongoing discussion about the origins of Eurydice of Lyncestis. Even if in any case it had any truth in it, having your grandmother an ‘Illyrian’ doesnt make you an Albanian. Its interesting to note though Cummings contradicts Albanian nationalistic claims and verifies Olympias was Greek.

HistoryOfMacedonia Blog – Cummings

19. The Incredible Balkans by Konrad Bercovici

Another example of non-historian that our nationalist Albanian friends attempt to give credit. Anyway we still find speculations in the text taken out of context like “probably” and “is said”.

20. The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present By Edwin E. Jacques

The missionary Edwin E. Jacques isnt only an historian but his utterings are in reality considered a joke into scientific community while the only people in this planet seeming to take him seriously are albanian nationalists.

More about Jacques the new idol of Albanian nationalism

21.Alexander the Great’s Art of Strategy: The Timeless Leadership Lessons of History’s Greatest Empire Builder

Someone would immediately ask what does a book about finance and business has got to do with accurate history?? The answer lies to the fact that since no credible historian supports albanian outrageous claims they could bring up even the milkman of their neighbourhood if he had a statemen supporting them.

22. Are Leaders Born Or Are They Made?: The Case of Alexander the Great By Manfred F. R. Kets de Vries

Again not an historian. Eventhough i dont see what albanians actually want to prove with this quote. Following that logic Alexander is a Greek because ancient Macedonia lies to modern Greece.

23. Macedonia: The Politics of Identity and Difference By Jane K. Cowan

Jane K. Cowan isnt an historian specialized in ancient history. Anyway the truthfullness of albanian nationalistic parties claims makes as much sense as the validity of modern Fyrom’s parties claims.

24. The nations of Russia and Turkey and their destiny By Ivan Gavrilovich Golovin

Ivan Gavrilovich Golovin is ANOTHER example of non-historian our friends use without shame.

25. The History of Rome By Thomas Arnold

So? Everybody knows Olympias in an Epirote princess. Ironically Thomas Arnold is one of the few historians being used here but more ironically same with the other historians previously he doesnt share Albanian nationalist claims.

26. Greek Horizons By Helen Day Hill Miller

So????

27. The Edinburgh Review: Or Critical Journal By Sydney Smith

Sydney Smith AGAIN is a non-historian.

Conclusion:

From the 27 ‘sources’ albanian nationalist brought only 5 of them are actually coming from historians.

From those 5, Albert Brian Bosworth says nowhere anything about ‘Albanian’ origins or sth like that, Lewis Vance Cummings contradicts Albanian claims and verifies Olympias was a Greek princess, Thomas Arnold says nothing about Albanians, Charles Alexander Robinson says “he was of Greek descent” but since he wrote in 1948 he couldnt have been aware of the newest discoveries (ie Molossian decrees) that proved undoubtedly the Greek origin of Molossians (epirote) and lastly Sarah B. Pomeroy is an historian who just supports the view Alexander’s grandmother was probably Illyrian.

So in reality Albanians have exactly noone in the historical community to support their absurb claims Alexander was “Albanian”.

Want more of this? See these Posts:

  1. Albanian propaganda – Alexander the ‘Albanian’ Part III
  2. Albanian propaganda – Alexander the Albanian Part I
  3. Is Alexander the Great Greek?
  4. The term “Vardar Macedonia” has Illyrian Origin according to Albanian Historian
  5. The Albanian myth from William Maxwell (Albania – Greece)
Comments
thlemaxos says:

ok ok ok first vardarians (buglarians in denial ) claims that they are ancient macedonians bulgarians that they are ancient thracians turks says that they are ancient ionians etc brainless shit now albanians claims that they are dirct descend of illirians ok i dont have problem with that but claiming now that alexander the great was an illirian ? ok take a look
Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves. There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay — and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for GREECE , and our hearts will be in it. As for our FOREIGN TROOPS — Thracians, Paeonians, ILLYRIANS , Agrianes — they are < the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia. And what, finally, of the two men in supreme command? You have Alexander, they — Darius!
Addressing his troops prior to the Battle of Issus, as quoted in Anabasis Alexandri by Arrian Book II, 7 nuf said what now they will claim that was an ancient greko-roman propaganda which was about 2000 + now they claim that they had alexander on coin at 1926 ok but we were singing about him before 1926 μακεδονια ξακουστή nuff said hmm ok then now i can claim that barack obama is white from Sweden

ΑΡΧΑΙΟΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ says:

Εποικοδομητική συζήτηση;Διάλογος,κατά το δυνατόν,επιστημονικός;Με αυτούς τους αμαθείς και ημιμαθείς,εδώ,εννοείς και υπονοείς;Με τα φασιστάκια,τα αλβανάκια,θα κάνεις διάλογο,αδελφέ μου;

UNCOVER AND PULVERIZE FROM AUSTRALIA TO THE WHOLE OF EUROPE,FROM CANADA AND BRAZIL TO INDIA AND CHINA THE S(H)QIP(E)TARO-ALBANIAN SLIMY PROPAGANDA!B U R N THEIR ENTIRE GARBAGE!FREEDOM TO THE NORTHERN EPIRUS!F U C K S(H)QIP(E)RIA’S/S(H)QI(Y)PNIA’S FAKE,FALSE EAGLE!

Damianos says:

Asfalos exeis dikeo!

Na doume apo edo kai empros ti mborei na ginei na diorthothi i katastasi.

Fovame oti to kalitero pou mboroume na elpizoume einai sintheto onoma, kai ayto me diskolia!

Distixos!

The_Director says:

Just a quick note to the usual suspects.

Next time someone wants to post a comment here, ALWAYS provide Valid Source(s) to back up your claim(s).

"Valid Source(s)" is/are considered, ie when discussing about ancient history, ONLY citations from ancient sources.

Idiotic Arguments like 'Claim A is true, because i say so' and/or "It is known to be like that, therefore its true," are considered by the Blog mods as spam/complete waste of time, therefore they will be deleted at once.

If you are not aware of the basic criteria of a constructive discussion or how to construct a valid argument, this is not the place to learn and simply dont bother to post at all.

Rosie says:

Soto, you are full… of ….! You guys are trying so… hard to hide the history of Albanians, you are afraid the world might find out how much history you stole from Albanians? Look at the old scrolls, are you hiding them well, don't let anyone come across them or your big lies will come out! you guys were happy and made sure that no one knows about Albanians or finds out who Albaninas are, now Albanians are free and talking about their history, if you could you would lock all the Albanians in the dungeon, and never let them see the sun light, so the world would never find out about Albanians, just how much history did you steal from Albanians, Let the world know NOW! GOD is on our side, he said enough is enough; you have yet to see who Albanians are,
Thank you,
Rosie

OIA says:

Interesting stuff.

D-Mak says:

Its pointless, indeed, to waste our time replying to ignorant remarks in this very topic from its right beginning. So please next time any Albanian National wishes to comment here, at least provide something worthy to comment on or simply dont bother to waste our time.

Even the inscribed tripod discovered inside the Tomb II highlights the validity of the above claim. The tripod was won during the games of Hera in Argos, Peloponnese by Alexander Philhellene. Therefore two safe conclusions can be made:

(a) Alexander also participated in other Pan-Hellenic games except Olympics. Both occasions show undoubtedly that he identified himself as a Greek and the same happened with Southern Greeks towards him.

(b) It is also indicative the moment Alexander I the Philhellene during Olympics, announced his Temenid origin to all bystanders. Among Bystanders were certainly Argives and other Peloponessians. On the sound of the names “Temenos” and “Hercules” used by Alexander to trace his descent, they would strongly protest if it was not true. Noone did but on the contrary with this archaeological discovery we have evidence of Alexander taking part in the Argive Heraea together with other Argives. In essense those games were one of these events that reminded and renewed the bond between those Greeks of Argive Stock. Hence those Argives and Peloponessians were aware of a number of Temenids having indeed migrated to Macedonia, their descedants were participating in Argive and the Argive origin of Macedonian kings is beyond any doubt.

EMathius says:

Sorry but the greek author of this allgedly response make so mistakes, so pointless. He trying to nihilate what had wrote W.Tarn and says that ‘archaeological findings in Vergina has change perspective of view”.

Seriously, for what changing of perspective are you talking? Please, I am so curios to know how is changing perspective about Macedonians or Alexander by archaeological findings in Vergina tombs?
Dit it found any inscription that says decisivly that ‘Macedonians are Greek’ or ‘Alexander is Greek’? So, I am wainting with impatience your answer.

Dimitrios says:

@ Amir the “Great Albanian”,

and his “… fuck fantazy.”
:)

“Remember what saying … There is no debate without debaters.” :

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/epirus-forum/9693-origin-albanians-5.html

:)

D-Mak says:

Amir, the only reason i left this comment and it hadnt got the same fate like your other Racist Drivel, is for a single reason. To show the world the absurb level of screwed up brains most of Albanians like you have.

Sorry to break the news to you but the phrase “Albanian scholar” sounds like the greatest joke among the world academia.

From the foreigners in your list you prove either you are totally Dumb and you have no clue what you read, or you are another worthless troll, being here to waste our precious time.

From your post i have no quams why they have banned you from the forum you refered at.

For your information, i dont intend to waste my time more by checking on each one of them, but the only authority on the issue from your list, Eugene Borza verifies Epirotes were Greek, nowhere says anything that Alexander is Albanian. John Shea is not an historian but a psychologist, Edwin Jacques is a… missionary and the rest are irrelevant to the subject of history.

Goodnight and get a life.

Amir Ademi says:

Dimitrios, are u member of fake forum: macedoniaontheweb.com. It’s a detestation forum, in wich everyone who posted anything that oppose official greek liars, they banned. I’ve posted some comments there, but adminstrators did not allow to posts more. There is no debate without debaters. In this forum talking only greeks. They supported one another and enyoy with their fuck fantazy.

Alexander the Great was Albanian; Lets mention some scholars or historical personalities who support this claim:

From Albanian; Gjergj Kastrioti-Skenderbeu, Marin Barleti, Dhimiter Frengu, Jeronim de Rada, Pashko Vasa, Sami Frasheri, Naim Frasheri, Kristo Dako etc etc

From foreigners: Benjamin Disrael, Edwar Gibbon, Lord Bayron, Edith Durham, John Shea, Edwin Jacques, Eugene Borza, Robert D’Angely, Faverial, etc etc.

Remember what saying Finley in ‘History of Greek Revolution: ‘Basis in archeological findings, Alexander the Great used an early Albanian dialect to talking with his commanders’. Was Finley Albanian?

Cheers
Amir Ademi
Kosove

Dimitrios says:

Check out how this Luboteni-Clown is making a fool out of himself
right now:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ancient-macedonian-history/6082-origin-ancient-macedonians-other-greeks-8.html

:)

dodoni says:

After i posted my comments above i realized the fanny situation and i was surprised and socked by the thema of the discusion. Excuse me, but are we really talking if ancient Macedonians were Macedonians? After the FYROMians-FYROManiacs now we have the Albanians? What is wrong with you people? What is wrong with the ex-communistic countries?
According your way of thinking Macedonians aren’t Macedonians but camuflased Illyrians? The Macedinian kings are Illyrians? They don’t speak Greek but Illyrian? For god shake you people, be reasonable. You assume they speak your(?) language because they were your(?) neighbours? So? They were also with Epirotes, Thracians and Thessalians.
Please, leave ancient Macedonians alone and start to worry about your own language.We have the linguistic proofs about the ancients. We have Pella’s Catadesmos before Philippos II and Alexander III desided(?) to adupt(?) a foreign (?) language, according to you, in order Greeks to conquer the world. After all, it is very usual in history to do so:
Romans left their mother language and adapted the Greek international one!?! Englishmen did the same when they conquered India!?! And Germans would have be spoken Russian if had conquered Europe!?!
We have the ancient coins several hundrends of years before historic times with the Greek names on them in the Greek language. Macedonians had Greek names, their cities had Greek names, when they moved around Pindos from south they renamed the cities in Greek. Their gods were Greeks and the gods’names were Greeks.
And you are talking about the Illyrian-gost language? Before you speak for ancient Macedonians find out what language you speak. Because there is no proof that you speak the Illyrian one. Search and solve your own linguistic matters, find proofs for your own language.
NO ONE and i mean NO ONE in ancient times doubt that Macedonians are Greeks!!!!!!!!!
Leave Macedonians in peace. They don’t deserve such a behavior!

dodoni says:

@Luboteni

My Albanian friend,
First of all Alexander in no way was an Albanian as we all know that Albanians came in Europe the 8th c AC. Perhaps you mean that he was an Illyrian. And even he was it is wrong to call him as Albanian. It is like Turks call Omeros as Turkish because today they occupy his birthplace.( But even that you don’t have)
Let Alexander speak by his own:
‘…Οἱ ὑμέτεροι πρόγονοι ἐλθόντες εἰς Μακεδονίαν καὶ εἰς τὴν ἄλλην Ἑλλάδα κακῶς ἐποίησαν ἡμᾶς οὐδὲν προηδικημένοι. ἐγὼ δὲ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ἡγεμὼν κατασταθεὶς καὶ τιμωρήσασθαι βουλόμενος Πέρσας…’
Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander , II
‘…Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did US great harm, though WE had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks and wishing to panish Persians…’

‘…ὅσοι τε Ἕλληνες Ἕλλησιν, οὐχ ὑπὲρ τῶν αὐτῶν μαχεῖσθαι, ἀλλὰ τοὺς μὲν ξὺν Δαρείῳ ἐπὶ μισθῷ καὶ οὐδὲ τούτῳ πολλῷ κινδυνεύοντας, τοὺς δὲ ξὺν σφίσιν ὑπὲρ τῆς Ἑλλάδος ἑκόντας ἀμυνομένους. βαρβάρων τε αὖ Θρᾷκας καὶ Παίονας καὶ Ἰλλυριοὺς καὶ Ἀγριᾶνας τοὺς εὐρωστοτάτους τε τῶν κατὰ τὴν Εὐρώπην καὶ μαχιμωτάτους …’
Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, II
‘…There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service –but how different is their cause from ours ! They will be fighting for pay— and not much of it at that; WE on the contrary shall fight for GREECE, and our hearts will be in it.As for our FOREIGN troops Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes — they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, …’
I don’t know if Illyrians are a Hellenic tribe.It is sure that for Alexander they were foreigners.

‘…ὡς μεγάλης ἡδονῆς ἐστεροῖντο τῶν Ἑλλήνων οἱ τεθνηκότες πρὶν ἰδεῖν Ἀλέξανδρον ἐν τῷ Δαρείου θρόνῳ καθήμενον…’
‘That great pleasure miss the Hellenes who died before be able to see Alexander to be sitted on Dario’s throne’
If Hellenes were conquered there would feel only hate and anger.The living Hellenes soldiers felt pleasure because their king was the new king of Asia.

‘ἀποπέμπει δὲ καὶ εἰς Ἀθήνας τριακοσίας πανοπλίας Περσικὰς ἀνάθημα εἶναι τῇ Ἀθηνᾷ ἐν πόλει. καὶ ἐπίγραμμα ἐπιγραφῆναι ἐκέλευσε τόδε. Ἀλέξανδρος Φιλίππου καὶ οἱ Ἕλληνες πλὴν Λακεδαιμονίων ἀπὸ τῶν βαρβάρων τῶν τὴν Ἀσίαν κατοικούντων.’
Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, II
‘He sends in Athens three hundrent Rersians’ panoply as an offer to Athena .And wrote this sign : Alexander son of Philippos and Hellenes except Lacedemonians, from the barbarians who live in Asia’
He obviously feel Hellenas. His army is a Greek one.They are all Hellenes.
And as for your falk songs for Alexander. Believe me in all the traditions and folklorities are myths and songs about Alexander, all over the world he conquered from Egypt to India, in Afganistan, in Pakistan, in Israel,in Iran, in Irak…On your way of thinking he is Egyptian, Indian, Afganian, Pakistanian,Israelian, Irany, Iraky, American, Aethiopian, Allien…
Perhaps for the historical, linquistic, archeological, cultural, religion and other proofs and facts you need to read, i’ m afraid the categories on Alexander and Macedonia on this web side. And perhaps the FYROMian propaganda.

Thank you very much

D-Mak says:

Lutoteni,

I ‘ll make it quick since your comments dont deserve anything more a couple of lines to state the obvious.

“and to ofering an full images of Albanian origin of Alexander the Great need also antropolgist, linguists etc etc ”

Since we are talking merely about an historical issue, namely the Origins of Alexander the Great, obviously we should seek the guidance of an authority/expert about the issue. Apparently this expert is an Historian and not an anthropologist, linguist, traveller or even the owner of a kiosk. Blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain but seems yet it doesnt apply to you.

“Only, in Albanian folk exist songs about Alexander”

“Both of them (greeks and slavicmacedoniasn) learned for the first time about Alexander the Great in XIX century or XX”

Thank you for these lines. Especially the last one will be nominated for the upcoming Contest of the “Dumbest Lines of 2009″. We planned to contain only Skopjan ones but people like you live to remind us that Albanians arent any better than them. Btw go and read any relative research to universities about Alexander’s Romance and you may cure your amazing ignorance. I havent got any further time to waste with people that cant write even “Insetad” correct.

Dimitrios says:

The idiotic response of Luboteni shows once more how far illiteracy and brainwashing
is entrenched in Albanian Propaganda.

Like Luboteni, these poorly educated individuals demonstrate clearly that
they have not the slightest idea what the difference is between scientific research
and unsubstantiated drivel -- mumbo jumbo that is :)

Go on ridiculing yourself !

Luboteni says:

I guess that greek propagandist are affraid by historical truth that is shown in these books. They did not shown any single fact or polemzie with these authors that they labeled as ‘pro-Albanians’ or ‘non historians’. I have a demand for all greeks: Can greeks find a single fact to dispute against these above authors!? Insetad, to read with carefulness work of these scholars, greeks joking with the name of these scholars.

Luboteni says:

The response of greek circle is ridicule. Why? The author of this ‘response’ against ‘Albanian propaganda’ trying to labeled western scholars who said about albanian origin of Alexander the Great as ‘non historians’! It seems to be strange, where we know very well that greeks used more nonhistorians than albanians, in their silly attempting to hellenize Alexander the Great. To proven Albanian origin of Alexander the Great surely in first role are historians. But,only historians does not enough to define Alexander the Great. To fulfill and to ofering an full images of Albanian origin of Alexander the Great need also antropolgist, linguists etc etc because everyone could offering a different perspective of view, that make historical photo more obviously.
Only, in Albanian folk exist songs about Alexander. Neither greeks nor slavicmacedonians have not any oral song about Alexander the Great. Both of them (greeks and slavicmacedoniasn) learned for the first time about Alexander the Great in XIX century or XX. In oral Albanian folk are some songs dedicated Alexander the Great regarded into albanians as ‘Leka i Madh’ or ‘Trimi i Sharrit’.

Giorgis H says:

Το όνομα “Αλέξανδρος” αναφέρεται ΚΑΙ στην Ιλιάδα του Ομήρου, ως προσωνύμιο στον Πάρι, τον πρίγκηπα των Τρωών.

Giorgis H says:

Το όνομα “Αλέξανδρος” ακόμα αναφέρεται ΚΑΙ στην Ιλιάδα του Ομήρου ως προσωνύμιο, και αναφέρεται στον Πάρι, τον προγκηπα των Τρωών.

westclub4 says:

It is amazing how easily some people confuse things up and let aside facts and documents, and are forced to accept official state propaganda as ‘the one and the only, indisputable and historic, truth’, which comes from contemporary Albanian secret services and state agencies. Indeed, the contemporary Albanians feel as if they were the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians. However, it is only they who support such a non-historical thesis, since it cannot prove empirically (i.e. scientifically-speaking) this contested and extraordinary political (rather than ethno-historical) unfortunate misconception.

The Illyrians were an ancient Greek tribe, which inhabited the northwestern parts of the Hellenic Peninsula (i.e. the northwestern parts of contemporary Balkans). They were living next to the Greek Epirotans, north and northwest to the ancient Greek Paeonians and Macedonians. They dueled north of the Gennusos River (i.e. north of the Skumbini river, which is in modern day Albania) and their lands extended as far as (and possibly beyond) the former Yugoslavia, up to ancient Karinthia (i.e. in southern Austria) and to Pannonia (i.e. in modern day Hungary).

In Greek mythology, the Illyrians were a significantly large ethnic tribe, which was only ‘half’-Greek, to say the least, or even fully-fledged Greek, as the many applications they sent for admittance to the Olympic Games, which were only for Greeks of origin, can tell us.

In particular, their mythical leader –i.e. their mythical forefather or genator, King Illyrios was said to have been the son of the Greek King Kadmus of Thebes in ancient Greek land of Boeotia and of the also Greek princess Armonia. Their son, King Illyrios, was born and grew up in ancient Buthoe (i.e. the modern day city of Butva, which is in contemporary Montenegro) and became King of the Illyrians, a tribe that took their name from the Greek-born King. His kingdom had been centered on the ancient city of Buthoe and extended from northern Albania (north of the Mat Valley) to the Montenegrin-Bosnian border.

So much then for the contested ancient Albanian descent and of the non-historical contemporary Turk-Albanian’ claims over the disputed ancient Greek territories of Illyria, Dardania, Epirus and Macedonia.

Illyrios, EL A. says:

It’s very interesting indeed, to find in contemporary blogs many posts from albanians who claim any descent from ancient macedonia, from Alexander the Makedon and from his makedones folk. The illyrian tribe of ancient albanians, which inhabited the ancient city of Alvanopolis -probably somewhere between contemporary Elbassan and the city of Tyrana- had very little to do with modern-day Albanians (ie. Skipetars) who speak a mixed graeco-latin language, whose history dates to no more than 800-900 years of life.

It is very unfortunate that the Albanians of today have taken an ancient greek symbol, the ancient greek embleme of the double-headed eagle, and use it in their own ethnic flag, as a symbol or embleme separate to those of modern-day Greece. The modern-day albanian flag -with the red font in the background and the black double-headed eagle sketched upon it- is, indeed, very similar to the older banner used by Georgios I. Kastriotis (aka the ”Skender-beys” or the ”Great-Alexander”) himself. In particular, throughout the 15th century, Kastriotis fought in many battles against the invading/raiding Turks in the balkans, in order to liberate Greece from their hostile Othoman moslem dynastes.

Kastriotis took up that particular banner from the byzantine-greeks, which was a very natural thing to do, given that he has been of greek origin himself. His flag, was nothing more than the original byzantine-greek war flag. When at war, the late byzantine-greek empire, used to raise a red flag with the black double-headed eagle sketched upon it. Exactly the same did Kastriotis too when he fought the ottoman turks. When at peace, the byzantine-greek flag’ colours used to change from the warriors’ red to the colours of cristiandom and to those of peace; hence, the yellow colours that still up until nowadays has that old original byzantine-greek flag outside every greek-orthodox church in modern-day liberated Greece.

Moreover, the double-headed eagle was first employed, quite probably by the Corinthian greek warriors of antiquity, as well as, by the many ancient dorian-greek tribes. Indeed, many shields have been found by archaeologists today, which were once held by ancient greek soldiers in the times of antiquity. Therefore, we can conclude with great certainty that the double-headed eagle is another ancient- and medieval-greek symbole and tribal greek embleme, which is still used today by the various ‘barbarians’ of our era; that is, by the ‘pure’ barbarians, such as the modern-day russians, the ‘serbs’ (ie. the ‘servants’ of- or the ‘servile peoples’ to the Tatars and to the proto-Bulgarians) and the other ‘slavic’ peoples (ie. those peoples who were once ‘enslaved’ to the Tatar-turks’ or to the Mongol-turkish raiding hordes in the balkans and in asia minor) or from the ‘semi-barbarian’ or the ‘mix-o-barbaric’ peoples (ie. the mixed with the greeks partially ‘foreign to the greeks’ populations of central and of north-western balkans today, such as the modern-day Albanians (or Skipetars) and the Slavo-Macedonians of FYROM. The last two semi-barbarian peoples are only partially greeks or, as the ancient greeks would have best put it, they are ‘mixobarbaric’ greeks -and thus, not pure greeks.

The ‘internal’ name employed by modern-day albanians, ie. Skipetars, is completely uknown to the medieval-greek Arvanites’ folk. One should distinguish between the two separate peoples, although the graeco-latin language used by modern-day albanians is akin to the more ancient Arvanites’ medieval latinicized-greek language, which even then had many and significant loans from the medieval balkanic-latin dialect, indeed. The history of the Arvanites’ folk, their strong national conciousness which still nowadays is -as it ever was- greek, and their strong and uncontested ethnic feelings for Greece, greekness, greekdom and greekhood, do not leave us any room for casting any reasonable doubts upon their true patriotism or, as a matter of fact, for their strong ethnic feelings and for their origins.

The graeco-latin speakers of the north-western parts of the hellenic peninsula (ie. of the north-western balkans), those ancient epirotes, macedonians, paeonian-, dardanian- and illyrian-greeks, whose greek ‘koine’ dialect became semi-latinicized, aka the medieval ‘arvanitika’ esperanto dialect of a common graeco-latin substratum, were pushed southwards from the various raiding ‘avaro-slavs’. Thus, they inhabited the ancient greek epeirotan-makedonian and the illyrian-greek ancient lands, which lay in today Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo, Fyrom and north-western modern-day Greece. Some of them moved even southwards to central and to south Greece; hence, the Arvanite folk’ of attico-beotia, corinthia, and so on. Their ethnic origins were -and still are to this day- greek. Although their language became to a significant extent a -more or less- latinicized greek dialect, they nevertheless kept their greekness, their indisputably greek national identity and their beleif that they are greeks of pure and of ancient tribal stock, which is akin in particular to the ancient dorian-, the makedonian- and the epirotan-greeks.

On the other hand, even the modern-day albanians, which up to a certain extend have somehow lost their original ancient greek national identity in nowadays, they too as well attain their historic origins to the graeco-illyrians, to the epirotic- and macedonian-greeks, to the dardanian- and paeonian-greeks of antiquity, and furthermore, to the proto-greeks, our common pelasgian ancestors; that is the Mycenaeans, the Achaeans, the Ionians, the Troyans and so on. Hence, when the muck from all those centuries of roman, avaro-slavic, ottoman-turkish, ie. of foreign and barbaric occupations eventually falls apart, even the most hostile to greeks modern-day albanians will quite probably return to their original and historic roots. Those roots are in reality the shinning cosmopolitismos of their true ancient forefathers, the glorious Greeks of the ancient times, from the Hellenes of Achilleas, the Makedones of Alexander the Great, the Illyrioi of Kadmos and Armonia, and the Epirotae of Pyrrhus to the double-headed eagles of Georgios I. Kastriotis (”Skenderbeys”), the Souliotes of Markos Mpotsaris, Shehu and Photis Tzavellas, to the Laskarina-Boumboulina and to Theodoros Kolokotronis of 1821, to Ioannis Kapodistrias of liberated south Greece and to Pavlos Melas (ie. Mikis Zezas) of the only partially-liberated epiro-makedonia (north-western Greece) and of the partially-liberated thrake (ie. northern-eastern Greece).

For the liberation and for a federation of all ethnic-greek modern and ancient peoples; from the ancient greek province of Illyris (ie. north Albania, Kosovo and Montenegro), to the ancient northern Epirous (ie. south and central Albania), to the region of northern Makedonia, Paeonia and Dardania (ie. modern-day FYROM, south Serbia, Pyrin region in Boulgaria), to the eastern Rumelia and the ancient northern Thrake region and up to the Mt.Haemos (Stara Planina in modern-day Boulgaria) and the eastern Thrake (ie. ‘continental’ or ‘european’ Turkey). For the Hellenic Republic and for the Balkan Federation of all its peoples, be it Greek or barbarian.

Illyrios,
EL A.

Spirit of Truth says:

In Herodotos time shortly after the end of 600 B.C he talks as if it is
clearly well known that the Thesprotians were Greeks from the
earliest of times….. from even before the Oracle at Dodona!:

“[2.55] This was what I heard from the priests at Thebes; at Dodona,
however, the women who deliver the oracles relate the matter as
follows:- “Two black doves flew away from Egyptian Thebes, and while one
directed its flight to Libya, the other came to them. She alighted on an
oak, and sitting there began to speak with a human voice, and told them
that on the spot where she was, there should henceforth be an oracle of
Jove. They understood the announcement to be from heaven, so they set to
work at once and erected the shrine. The dove which flew to Libya bade
the Libyans to establish there the oracle of Ammon.” This likewise is an
oracle of Jupiter. The persons from whom I received these particulars
were three priestesses of the Dodonaeans, the eldest Promeneia, the next
Timarete, and the youngest Nicandra -- what they said was confirmed by
the other Dodonaeans who dwell around the temple.

[2.56] My own opinion of these matters is as follows:- I think that, if
it be true that the Phoenicians carried off the holy women, and sold
them for slaves, the one into Libya and the other into Greece, or
Pelasgia (as it was then called), this last must have been sold to
the Thesprotians.
Afterwards, while undergoing servitude in those parts, she built under
a real oak a temple to Jupiter, her thoughts in her new abode reverting
-- as it was likely they would do, if she had been an attendant in a
temple of Jupiter at Thebes -- to that particular god. Then, having
acquired a knowledge of the Greek tongue, she set up an oracle.
She also mentioned that her sister had been sold for a slave into
Libya by the same persons as herself.

[2.57] The Dodonaeans called the women doves because they were
foreigners, and seemed to them to make a noise like birds. After a while
the dove spoke with a human voice, because the woman, whose foreign talk
had previously sounded to them like the chattering of a bird, acquired
the power of speaking what they could understand. For how can
it be conceived possible that a dove should really speak with the voice
of a man? Lastly, by calling the dove black the Dodonaeans indicated
that the woman was an Egyptian. And certainly the character of the
oracles at Thebes and Dodona is very similar.
Besides this form of divination, the Greeks learnt also divination by
means of victims from the Egyptians.”

There are several more descriptions in Herodotos which, almost
incidentally, mention the same type of fact as I posted above
re the Epeirotes….that they are Greek. Here’s another:

“XXXIII. But the Delians1 say much more about them than any
others do. They say that offerings wrapped in straw are brought from the
Hyperboreans to Scythia; when these have passed Scythia, each nation in
turn receives them from its neighbors until they are carried to the
Adriatic sea, which is the most westerly limit of their journey;
[2] from there, they are brought on to the south, the people of Dodona
being the first Greeks to receive them.

Here’s another:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=3DPerseus%3Atext%3A1999.01=
.0126&query=3Dchapter%3D%231032&layout=3D&loc=3D6.125.1

CXXVI. In the next generation Cleisthenes1 the tyrant of Sicyon raised =
that house still higher, so that it grew much more famous in Hellas than =
it had formerly been. Cleisthenes son of Aristonymus son of Myron son of =
Andreas had one daughter, whose name was Agariste. He desired to wed her =
to the best man he could find in Hellas. [2] It was the time of the =
Olympian games, and when he was victor there with a four-horse chariot, =
Cleisthenes made a proclamation that whichever Greek thought himself =
worthy to be his son-in-law should come on the sixtieth day from then or =
earlier to Sicyon, and Cleisthenes would make good his promise of =
marriage in a year from that sixtieth day. [3] Then all the Greeks who =
were proud of themselves and their country came as suitors, and to that =
end Cleisthenes had them compete in running and wrestling contests.

CXXVII. From Italy came Smindyrides of Sybaris, son of Hippocrates, the =
most luxurious liver of his day (and Sybaris was then at the height of =
its prosperity), and Damasus of Siris, son of that Amyris who was called =
the Wise. [2] These came from Italy; from the Ionian Gulf, Amphimnestus =
son of Epistrophus, an Epidamnian; he was from the Ionian Gulf. From =
Aetolia came Males, the brother of that Titormus who surpassed all the =
Greeks in strength, and fled from the sight of men to the farthest parts =
of the Aetolian land. [3] From the Peloponnese came Leocedes, son of =
Phidon the tyrant of Argos, that Phidon who made weights and measures =
for the Peloponnesians1 and acted more arrogantly than any other Greek; =
he drove out the Elean contest-directors and held the contests at =
Olympia himself. This man’s son now came, and Amiantus, an Arcadian from =
Trapezus, son of Lycurgus; and an Azenian from the town of Paeus, =
Laphanes, son of that Euphorion who, as the Arcadian tale relates, gave =
lodging to the Dioscuri, and ever since kept open house for all men; and =
Onomastus from Elis, son of Agaeus. [4] These came from the Peloponnese =
itself; from Athens Megacles, son of that Alcmeon who visited Croesus, =
and also Hippocleides son of Tisandrus, who surpassed the Athenians in =
wealth and looks. From Eretria, which at that time was prosperous, came =
Lysanias; he was the only man from Euboea. From Thessaly came a Scopad, =
Diactorides of Crannon; and from the Molossians, Alcon.

CXXVIII. These were the suitors. ………….

from: Spirit Of Truth

(using June’s e-mail to communicate to you)!

KASANDER says:

HEY LUI, ALEXANDER HIMSELF SAID THAT HIS KIN WERE THE ILLYRIANS, AND THRACIANS NOT GREEKS.

orakulli i dodnes says:

demokratia

Brandon says:

lol Lou! “Well Justin 11.3.6, if you go back to the local library and flip over some pages of a history book you’ll discover that Greek was also in international languge necessitated by their trade with other states.”

he thinks Justin 11.3.6 is the guy talking to him, hahaha!!! thats priceless, this guy wrote a book? my fav quote of Lou’s though: “Since most so-called historians usually put their own spin on things, and continually contradict one another, a conscienous writer has to slice through all the baloney to cut to the truth. ” yes thank goodness Ntemis G21 was here to do that

Soto says:

Half of Greece has NOT in reality pure albanian blood Mr Alban
You sound very uneducated by claiming such things

In the 2001 census, 443,550 holders of true Albanian citizenship were residing in Greece :)

Albanian immigrants are not to be confused with the Arvanites.
Arvanites have no love for Albania and not all Greeks are Arvanites :)

Arvanites are NOT PURE ALBANIANS they are a MIX
and arvanites do not want any connection with Albania :)

Some Arvanites are residing near the capital of Athens today

Just go ask a Arvanite whats his opinion about Albania :)
He will say to you that its a piece of shit country

Alban says:

Half of Greece has Albanian blood thanks to Albanian immigration from the 9th to the 18th century.

Lou Giaffo says:

The old Macedonian language is hard to define whether it belongs to Thraco-Illyrian or to Hellenic gruops of Indo-European language. Some linguists believe that tribes of mountainous Macedonia spoke an archaic language closer to Thracian or Illyrian, but people in towns and the upper classe, influenced by Greek achievements, gradually were losing their native tongue and took up Greek. Contacts with Greek Halkidiki and Thessalia regions were strengthening in the 5th and 4th centuries, and simulltaneously the process of national assimilation went on. When Greece was conquered by Philip of Macedonia and occupied by his son Alexander the Great, Macedonians officially became real Hellenes.

So, according to this account of the ancient Macedonian language, there is no clear consensus of its origins, just speculation. But the article seems to strongly imply that Greek came late to the Macedonians, similar to raw lumber finished into refined woodcraft. Since the language reflects its people, it naturally follows that the ancient Macedonians were much more non-Greek than Greek!

Ntemis G21 says:

Lou you are making a mistake. Rawlinson and Crossland qualify of course to be considered both as historians and as objective. The fact that both their accounts were not familiar with recent discoveries doesnt negate any of the two above attributes. What i object heavily is using sources about strictly historical issues posing as valid which a) are written by non-historians, b) are politically motivated. Gandeto/Grezlovski carries both these two options. Unfortunately so does this John Shea. As i told you previously…Beware of the wolves dressed in sheeps’ clothes.

I had read Shea’s book “Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation ” about a year ago and it made me curious why this person wrote the following in page 3.

“Probably everyone has heard the idea that the use of the name Macedonia by the Macedonians is a threat to Greece because it shows the expansionist ambitions of the Macedonians. Usually this idea is presented alongside the view that the name Macedonia is Greek in any case and should be reserved for Greek use. However the Greek claims go far beyond these assertions. THIS BOOK PRESENTS IDEAS THAT CONTRADICT THE GREEK CLAIMS. IN ESSENCE THIS BOOK PRESENTS THE COUNTER-CHARGE THAT THE (FORMERLY YUGOSLAV) MACEDONIANS HAVE A BETTER CLAIM to the name and the history of Macedonia than the Greeks in general, and even the northern Greeks who live in the lands that more than two thousand years ago formed the heartlands of the great Macedonian Empire. THIS MIGHT SEEM LIKE AN EXTRAORDINARY POSITION TO TAKE, GIVEN PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS ABOUT THE ISSUES.”

This is plainly translated into that Shea does not claim to be unbiased. In fact he indirectly admits to be biased against Greek position and naturally he adopts 100% FYRoMacedonia’s stance over the issue, sth you wont find in any serious scholar. Since the author himself, admits of being biased against a granted position (Greek), his further claims afterwards about “objectivity” in reference to facts are sounding like a bad joke and its unfortunate to be quite visible in his entire book where systematically he quotes selectively texts from eminent scholars while conveniently ignores texts which doesnt suit his purpose from the same scholars.

I asked myself why this person acts like that. I found the answer in the following link:

http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9712a&L=makedon&T=0&P=595

“From what vague details I remember John Shea is from Newcastle (NSW,
Australia). He is married to a Macedonian-Australian. I believe this
is how he gained an interest in Macedonian affairs.

In 1992, he wrote a book called:

The Real Macedonians
Publisher: Macedonian Australian Human Rights Association, Newcastle.
ISBN 0 646 10504 3″

Shea was simply another attempt of FYRoMacedonia diaspora to spread their political agenda from a seemingly “objective” scholar which btw according to his own CV isnt a historian or anything related to it.

http://www.newcastle.edu.au/school/psychology/our_staff/shea_john.html

How children development and human sexuality are related to history is really beyond me!!

Anyway back to business. I never wrote that the attic language used by Argead kings was the only language or “the original Macedonian language” in the Macedonian kingdom. On the contrary i already pointed out there is a dialect spoke which isnt Attic but according to archaeological and literary evidence is a dialect of Nort-West Greek, same as the one of Epirus. For instance Hesiodus writing around 700 BC, contains Macedonians (or literally their eponym ancestor Macedon) among the Greek-speaking people together with the Magnetes. Another impressing clue is the fact that the earliest Macedonians who migrated to the region later known as Macedonia were renaming Phrygian existing toponymies into…Greek. Quite odd for people who didnt speak Greek for starters!! :)

Which of these gentlemen wrote his inquiries after 1994?

Lou Giaffo says:

Okay Ntemis G21, you have already shot down three of my historians, here’s another one for you to shoot at, John Shea. In his “Two Ancient and Separate Nations,” he states as linguistic evidence that in questioning the significance of the use of Greek by the ancient Macedonians we need to sort out some of the linguistic history of the Macedonians. Firstly, the language original Macedonians, whatever it was, existed long before Macedonia became a powerful state. This is before the time, of course, of the great kings Philip ll and Alexander the Great. The name “Macedones” originated many centuries earlier, and no doubt came from the REAL Macedonian language. If the Macedonian language was recognized as Greek, and understood by Greeks, you would expect that this was the language used by the great Macedonian kings in the formal or legal context. But it was not.

We know with some certainty that Attic Greek, which came from much farther south (around the Athens area) and was being used in other parts of the world as a trade language, was used more and more as the language of state and used also in Alexander’s multi-cultural army. No linguist accepts that this language was the original Macedonian. So we have clear evidence that the Greek used by the Macedonins was a new language. Therefore, one cannot argue that the use of the language proves any lingistic associations between the original Macedonians and Greeks.

Many scholars have concluded that the ancient Macedonian language was not a Greek dialect and that it was more or less related to the languages of Macedonia’a neighbors, the Illyrians and the Thracians. These scholars include Muller and Mayer, writing in the nineteenth century, and Thumb, Thumb-Kieckers, Vasmer, Kacarov, Beshevljev, Budimir, Pisani, Russu, Baric, Poghirc, Chantraine, Katicic, and Nerosnak, writing in the twentieth centutry. Here attention will be given to sources more readily accessabe to those who want to inquire further.

Ntemis G21 says:

Well Lou, its not my fault that the sources you present dont step with recent archaeological discoveries. As we both know an archaeological finding can open new horizons in understanding better the ancient people. Prior to the 1990 we had almost no evidence of the language spoken in Macedonian region from 4th century and earlier. In fact thats what Crossland explicitely states in his essay. After 1990 with the new evidence from Pella Katadesmos, historians had at least a sample of complete text in ancient Macedonian and it was identified as being a dialect of North-West Greek.

Now back to the historian sources. When i quote a source, i totally ignore sources originating from sides which are politically involved in an historical debate. I would never quote a modern Greek historian. Like an historian of the other “side” he will be suspicious of being biased, thus non-objective. One of the recent practises, especially in Balkans is somehow to “dress sheep clothes to a wolf”. For example the new source you decided to choose.

Who is J.S Gandeto? What are his credits to be taken as “historian”? I didnt even know him or any of his books and from a search in google i made, i discover his name is Josif Grezlovski, a significant person in SlavoMacedonian diaspora, renamed in purpose as J. S Gandeto in order to be taken… seriously. Seems by this trick he manages to trick people. As a matter of fact his whole “career” consists of…the book you quoted. Nowhere there is any info of being historian or anything related…in fact he is only being “advertised” in the well known ultra-nationalistic sites.

Anyway i find it almost a waste of time to comment lengthy on his quote which its full of of empty claims and tragic mistakes. So i will limit it to the following:
“Curtius and Rufus apparently…are the same person and not two different ones. Despite of his utterings you can find easily the opposite of what he claims. It doesnt really need to be a rocket scientist to comprehend that when Plutarch writes about Alexander in his “Parallel lives of Noble Greeks and Romans” while he makes the comparison between Alexander and Ceasar, then obviously he considers Alexander a Greek and Ceasar a Roman. I guess people with a political agenda like him find it too difficult to deal with common sense. Its even more amusing to witness among the ancient historians who Gandeto or Grezlovski discovered they “support” the non-greekness of Macedonians…Herodotus, Justin, etc.

Lou Giaffo says:

Well Ntemis G21, so far you’ve shot down two historians: Cressland and Rawlinson as being outdated in the light of new archaeologicac evidence. Now I have another candidate for you: J.S. Gandito, in his book: “Ancient Macedonians,” elaborates on the differences on the Macedonians and Greeks, in which he quotes “Little attention is paid to the fact that, ancient biographers and chroniclers left us with no impression that these two dissiilar people were of the same ethnicity or nationality. On the contrary, their reporting is clear and unambiguously explicit and leaves little room for subsequent second-guessing and intrpretation. To them, ancient Macedonians constituted people, and a nation quite separate, and in stark contrast, to the Greeks. They militarily subdued the Greeks and subsequently treated them as conquered people; albeit more favorably than the rest of the people in the empire, but conquered subject they were, nevertheless. Roman and Greek biographers, like Curtius, Rufus, Polybius, Plutarch, Arrian, Diodorus, Justin and Herodotus described the ancient Macedonians as being a people quite distinct and separate from the ancient Greeks. Neither from an historical point of view, nor from a philosophical or military one, were these people ever regarded as one and the same with the ancient Greeks. Their neighborly discourse, as destiny will have it, was embroidered with constant hostility and mutual anttpathy (Borza, 1990)”

Ntemis G21 says:

Your example of Theba doesnt change the fact that Greeks in general occasionally rebelled against the leading power in the Greek world. As already being mentioned even before Macedonians, successively Atheneans, Spartans, Thebans, Thessalians partly (Jason of Pherai) tried one way or another to lead or “unite” Greece using forceful techniques. In all these attempts Greeks counteracted for the sole reason because none in the greek world wanted someone else in the top of his head.

If you read the Corinthian war (i provide a wikipedia link as more handy source) you will notice amazingly resemblances between Agesilaus’ expedition to Asia and Alexander’s. In fact in both cases its like we witness almost the same details. During Sparta’s supremacy after Agesilaus invaded to Asia, successive rebellions in the Greek mainland (surprise surpise..Theba again among the rebels) forced him to return back. In the battles of Spartan army against Persians, Spartans at certain times had to face a united Persian-Greek army against them (ie Battle of Knidus).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_War

The story of Beroea is not an insignigicant reason. His wife is the main reason why Glaukias agreed to safeguard the infant Pyrrhus in first place. I think its Justin’s account who explicitely verify the latter. Glaucias indeed risked at the time since a couple of years later, Cassander defeated him near Hebrus river -if i am not mistaken- and forced him to sign a peace treaty.

Lou Giaffo says:

To amplify my point of the Greek city states readiness to revolt at any opportunity is the well documented account of the Thebians, when they acted on a false report of Alexander’s death to revolt, and only the promptness and celerity of the young monarch to attend the emergency avoded a general insurrection which would surely have followed. Accordingly, Alexander immediately rushed from Illyria south suddenly appearing in Boeotia, stormed and took Thebes, and following a wholesale massacre, punished the survivors by completely destroying their city and selling them all as slaves. This signal vengence had the effect that Alexander intended -- to terrorize all of Greece into submission so he would be free to commence his Asiatic enterprise in tolerable security. He knew that Greece was now not likely to rebel, that is, unless he suffered some considerable reverses.
Clearly, this shows Alexander’s deep distrust of the Greeks, that he should go through such lengths to set an example.

Ntemis G21 misses the main point of why Illyrian king Gaukias rescued the young 2-year old prince Pyrrhus -- that of his survival from the Epirots. Instead he mentions a rather insignificant reason, something about being in the care of Glaukies’s wife, Beroea. What’s your point Ntemis G21? And about a military conflict with Cassander, I don’t think Gllaukies was too concerned about that since he invaded Eperus to restore Pyrrhus to the throne.

I never said the Greek was the major language at the time of Alexander before he subsequently spread it east to grow significantly alongside his conquests. What I meant was that Greek was ONE of the major languages at the time. Just look at the map of the Mediterranean basin, and its size, where Greek was spoken and then tell me that Greek was not one of the major languages at the time. For example, English is now considered the international language, replacing French which not too long ago had that role. Of course by my reference to the Greek world where Paul was spreading the word, I was merely symbolizing the word Greek to mean INTERNATIONAL, thus making the western world aware of the Savior: JESUS CHRIST!

Lou

Bardha says:

Illyrians and greek are actually “brothers” but like mostly brothers, they are enimies. They have probably the same roots : from the Pellagsian people. Anyway, dos it really matter if he’s Albanian ore Greek?. HE WAS BOTH!!!!… Illyria,Macedonia and so one, where the same people, They graduly grew apart from eachother and developed “new culture”…. God Damnet we lived next to eachother, and as the years went by, they changed,, Like people do, THEY CHANGE!!!!

Ntemis G21 says:

It depends on what your definition of “international language” is. The common perception keeps up with the current position of English language in the world. That was not the case with Greek prior to Philip. Ie. The inhabitants of the greek colony Istros surely spoke Greek but this was not the case for the entire region (modern day Dobruja). Neither Thracians nor Skythians who were living there spoke Greek. Greek language was limited to the Greek colonies and some traders. In fact your own paradigm verifies my point. Certainly Paul spread the word of Christ in Greek but this was -- as you point out -- 3 centuries later, hence after Alexander spread Greek language in Asia. Prior to Alexander, Jews didnt speak Greek.

To quote John F. A. Sawyer’s “Sacred languages and Sacred Texts” while describing the language situation in ancient world “Much more significant, however, was the influence to Judaism and early Christianity of Greek which steadily began to replace Aramaic as the lingua franca FROM the time of Alexander the Great.”

George Rawlinson’s account is entirely outdated. Especially when he was writing his books back in late 19th c. Not much to do with the vast amount of information we have now with all these recent archaeological discoveries which have given us a better understanding of classical world.

How exactly do you know how the average Greek viewed Macedonians and versa? The common Greek never viewed in a friendly way whoever tried to force his authority in the Greek world, nomatter where he was from.

What you ignore about Pyrrhus story is that his escorts chose the court of Glaucias to take the infant Pyrrhus because of a certain fact. Glaukias’ wife was Beroea, a Molossian princess, the only relative of the infant out of Epirus. So Pyrrhus was given her in order to take care of him. Taking him anywhere in Greece was out of the question as at the time most Greek cities didnt want a military conflict with Cassander. I doubt also if it wasnt Beroea’s influence that Glaucias would keep the infant and risk a possible clash with Cassander.

Lou Giaffo says:

Since the Mediterraneon comprised a large part of the known world in Alexander’s time, an area dotted with Greek colonies, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to deduce that Greek qualifies without question as an international language. Just 3 centuries later, PAUL spread the WORD OF CHRIST to the “Greek world,” in Greek!

Professor George Rawlinson in his “History of Macedonia,” generally accepted by the Greeks, asserts “that the Macedonian kingdom, which under Philip and Alexander attained such extraordinary greatness, was founded by Hellenic emigrants from Argos. The Macedonians themselves WERE NOT HELLENES; they belonged to the barbaric races, not greatly differing from the Greeks in ethnic type, but far behind them in civilization, which bordered Helles upon the north. They were a distinct race, not Paeonian, not Illyrian, not Thracian; but of the three, their connection was closest with the Illyrians.”

“Connection” seems to me, to be the KEY WORD, reflecting the close geographic proximity between the Illyrians and the Macedonians, not not only in their many confrontations, but in many other areas of interelationas -- in other words, the Macedonians had much more in common with the Illyrians than with the Greeks.

Another point to ponder is the atmosphere in Greece during the time of Philip and Alexander, in which the common Greek looked upon the conquering Macedonians as conquering foreign oppressors. This alone speaks volumes against any common bond or close relations between the Greeks and the Macedonians.

Concerning Pyrrhus, only one of the few who was able to out-general the Romans, I don’t profess to claim him as an Illyrian, but there is a close connection: he owes his survival to the Illyrian king Glaucias, who rescued him from the Epirots. Pyrrhus only two years old at the time, and, despite hot pursuit by the Epirots, was taken to safety at the court of King Glaucias, who later invaded Epirus and restored him to the throne of his father, Aeacides, who was deposed by the Epirots and his adherents executed.

Lou

Ntemis G21 says:

Lou, ancient sources verify ancient Macedonians spoke a North-West Greek dialect similar to Epirotes.

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“But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, AS FAR AS CORCYRA, at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, LANGUAGE, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar ”

[Strabo 7.7.8]

“But while he lay encamped there near him, many who came out of Beroea infinitely praised Pyrrhus as invincible in arms, a glorious warrior, whotreated those he had taken kindly and humanely. Several of these Pyrrhus himself sent privately, PRETENDING TO BE MACEDONIANS, and saying, now was the time to be delivered from the severe government of Demetrius, by coming over to Pyrrhus, a gracious prince, and a lover of soldiers.

[Plutarch Pyrrhus XI.4]

———————————————————

Both accounts make it clear the language spoken in Macedonia was spoken as far as Corcyra, hence differentiate it from the speech of Illyrians. In the second source of Plutarch, the Epirotes soldiers of Pyrrhus are able to “pretend to be Macedonians” apparently since they spoke the same dialect. I recall another instance where the Athenean general Demosthenes (not the famous orator) wanted to send spies to “pretend being Spartans”. As the ancient account made it plain he couldnt send Atheneans or others as they would be immediately tracked down but only speakers of a Doric dialect, thus he sent Messeneans.

The Doric dialect was akin to North-West Greek dialect more than any Greek dialect. Hence in the following account the Doric Messeneans are able to comprehend from their speech that the newcomers are Macedonians.

“But when they discovered from their equipment and SPEECH that it was the Macedonians and Demetrius the son of Philip, they were filled with great fear, when they considered the Macedonian training in warfare and the good fortune which they saw that they enjoyed in all their ventures. ”

[Pausanias Messeniaka XXIX, 3]

I repeat myself in reference to Greek being an “international language”. By stating that usually people bring to their minds, what English is today. Thats not the case. Greek was spoken outside from the Greek world only in Greek colonies which existed in Mediterranean. The average Illyrian/Thracian didnt speak Greek prior to Philip’s time. Even in Macedonian’s Perseus era, the Greek-speaking Perseus needed a translator to communicate with Illyrians.

Lou Giaffo says:

I stand corrected on the matter of the ancient Epirot language, which I incorrectly claimed was an Illyrian and Macedonia dialect. But my latest reseach shows that it is in fact rooted in Greek (upper western Greek dialect). And as Ntemis G21 correctly pointed out, the Mollosians constituted the majority of the population. But I still stand by my original contention that Macedonian was more of an Illyrian and Thracian dialect than a Greek one. An ancient map of that area further substanciates my point which shows a close geographical proximity between Illyria and Macedonia as if they were tied at the hips: just north of ancient Greek territory. Justin 11.3.6 characterized my claim as Greek being an international language at that time as being “an empty one,”
and that Persian (Farsi) was the only international language at that time. Well Justin 11.3.6, if you go back to the local library and flip over some pages of a history book you’ll discover that Greek was also in international languge necessitated by their trade with other states.

Lou Giaffo says:

I stand corrected, it was Theba I meant to say and not Thessaly. But what’s in a name, as Shakespeare was want to say. (It’s still all Greek to me). Or Greek against Greek, if as Justin 11.3.6 says, Alexander’s allies, the Phocians, the Plateans, the Thespians, and the Orchomenians, who sat in council to avenge the devestation of their own cities, and in concert with Alexander and in acknowledgement of the ruthlessness of the Thebans, exacted their justice on the hapless Thebans. Doesn’t this corroborate and amplify my point that if even Greeks cannot trust other Greeks, how in tarnation could Alexander trust them.

I never pretended to be an established historian on those times, but have had to rely mainly on tapping the sources that my research led me to, along with deductive reasoning and common sense, in the writing of my various books on Albanian history. Since most so-called historians usually put their own spin on things, and continually contradict one another, a conscienous writer has to slice through all the baloney to cut to the truth. Or as that old Wendy’s hamburger TV Ad says: “Where’s The Beef?” And this can be done only through the tireless research of the sources.

Obviously Alexander needed allies to be able to muster the number of men needed to field an army of cosequence against the Persians. Some of these allies were no doubt comprised of Greek units, as Justin 11.36. so ably named. All I said was that Alexander himself didn’t employ any Greeks in his own army -- there is a difference. Just to make myself clear, with no possibility of misinterpretation, I never claimed that anyone had a monopoly on courage and fighting ability, as the Greeks had plenty of both, which they so readily demonstrated against the Persians, and in more recent times in World War II against the fascist Italians and Germans, just the issue of language to identify various groups of people. As I have already pointed out, the ancient Macedonian language has long gone extinct. Modern Macedonia, now located further north from the ancient one, speaks a myriad of languages, a bare majority leaning toward Slavic, populated also by a variety of people, like alphabet soup. And of course, many moons have passed since ancient times, and any resemblance between then and now is strictly coincidental. Nations didn’t exist with set borders then, just city-states with fluid ones, constantly changing. Kings were mainly top tribal chiefs, with empires in the place of nations. Even the Roman empire operated out of a city, Rome, not a nation or country.

Ironically, there was not much difference between the Greeks and their neighbors, at that time, most of whom were descended from the Dorians and the Hellens, Aryian tribes from the north that had settled there in the previous mellinium.

We are all really cousins under the skin when you stop to think about it! Right?

Lou

Ntemis G21 says:

Again Lou, you conveniently ignore the massive evidence from ancient sources verifying the points of my previous post (Macedonian royal house and Molossian royal house considering themselves Greek, etc) just because it doesnt suit your agenda. Yet you stick to the language factor which ALSO is proved and acknowledged from the majority of modern linguists/historians to be a Greek dialect. You used in a desperate attempt to connect Illyrian with the speech ancient Macedonians spoke, the case of Crossland but unfortunately i am aware Crossland published an essay about ancient Macedonian language back in 1982, that is many years before the discovery of Pella’s katadesmos which proved ancient Macedonian was a dialect of Greek, thus sadly for you, those Crossland’s views, even though he claims we just dont know the background of ancient Macedonian language, are outdated. More recent testimonies like Olivier Masson’s conclude, as already being pointed out before, ancient Macedonian was Greek.

Then you make another tragic argument, claiming that “f Alexander the Great loved the Greeks so much how come he leveled the Greek city of Thessley to the ground killing or enslaving all of its citizens”. Well if you had a clue about ancient history and geography, firstly you would have known Theba is not in…Thessaly but in Boeotia. Furthermore you would have saved yourself from being ridiculed if you actually had read ancient sources that refer to Theba’s destruction.

“Alexander TURNED OVER the decision of what was to be done with Thebes to the ALLIES who participated in the military action. These decided to secure the Cadmea with a garrison, but to raze the city to the ground and distribute amongst the allies whatever lands were not sacred. Women and children, and any surviving Theban men, they would sell into slavery, with the exception..“

Arrian 1.9.9-10

“The king saw to the burial of the more than 500 Macedonian dead. He then convened the delegates of the Greeks and PUT BEFORE THEIR FULL COUNCIL the question of how they should deal with the city of Thebes, When the deliberations began, MEN WHO WERE ILL-DISPOSED TOWARDS THE THEBANS proceeded to ADVOCATE subjecting them to most cruel punishment, and jointed out that they had espoused the barbarian cause against the Greeks. THEY observed that in the time of Xerxes the Thebans had allied themselves with Persia and actually fought against Greece, and that they were the only Greek people to be honoured as benefactors by the Persian kings, with the ambassadors from Thebes assigned privileged seating before the kings. By recounting numerous other instances of this sort THEY INFLAMED THE FEELINGS of the delegates against the Thebans, and THESE EVENTUALLY VOTED to demolish the city, to sell the prisoners of war, to have the Theban exiles liable to arrest throughout Greece, and permit no Greek to harbour a Iheban. In conformity with the will of the council, the king demolished the city and thereby instilled terrible tear in those ol the Greeks liable to detect, lie sold off the prisoners of war and by that accumulated 440 talents of silver.“

Diodorus Siculus 17.14.1

When the destruction of the city was being discussed in council, the PHOCIANS, THE PLATAEANS, THE THESPIANS and the ORCHOMENIANS, ALEXANDER’S ALLIES who now shared his victory, recalled the devastation of their own cities and the ruthlessness of the Thebans, reproaching them also with their past as well as their present support of Persia against the independence of Greece.

Justin 11.3.6

Well Lue, sadly for your empty claims, ancient sources point out clearly it was the Greek allies of Alexander who were responsible for Theba’s destruction. You are right upon one thing though, some Greeks fought on Persian side against Alexander, like some Greeks fought in the Persian side against other Greeks almost a century ago and interestingly some Macedonians fought also on the Persian side against Alexander during his Asian expedition. See the case of Amyntas, the Macedonian general, who was fighting his own kin as leader of Greek mercenaries in Persian side.

Another empty claim was the one about the international language. Greek wasnt the international language before Philip and Alexander’s era. Persian was. Alexander made Greek the international language through his conquests. Before his time, Illyrians, Dardanians, Thracians, Egyptians, Persians, Carthaginians, Romans, Indians, Jews etc didnt know Greek. Macedonians spoke Greek from the time their kingdom was established.

Lou Giaffo says:

Again Ntemis G21 you seem to ignore the language factor in your arguments, brushing it off as a no-brainer. You along with most Greeksn live in a state of mass deniel, repeating over and over again like a cracked record, that Greeks can do no wrong. I know through my own personal experience with Greeks that you have a bad habit of adopting Albanians of great acievement as one of your own (Greek) while rejecting low achievers or naror-do-wells as Albanian. To recite an example of what I mean, it didn’t take long for the Greeks in the Boston area to call an Albanian football hero named Stika, a Greek. Another thing, if Alexander the Great loved the Greeks so much how come he leveled the Greek city of Thessley to the ground killing or enslaving all of its citizens in the process as “punishment for their threachery,” as he put it. This is just one of the reasons, as I stated in my last comments, that Alexander didn’t trust the Greeks to fight by his side. I have heard accounts where some Greeks faught on the side of the Persians, although in all fairness, I haven’t come across any corroboration of this. Alexander did initially use Attac Greek, in attempting to better communicate with those Greeks who were part of his forces, such as the Greek navy, along with some others. It must be said that the Greek navy (then the most powerful) with their many vessals, proved critical in Alexander’s successes. Since Greek along with Farsi (Persian) were considered the prime literal international languages at that time, Alexander used both as his court language, and mandated that all of his troops to learn both. This in order to spread the Hellenic culture to his conquered lands. Since Macedonian was not a literal (written) language, it has long since disappeared as a language. On the the other hand, Albanian still survives as the only original Indo-European language, able to retain its purity by historically guarding against contamination from the outside.

Keep em coming Ntemis G21, you are a challenging spokesman for the Greek point-of-view, and I find our dialogue very stimulating.

Lou

Ntemis G21 says:

All i can say is that Lou Giaffo needs to visit his local library asap and cover his tremendous ignorance. Olympias was a Greek princess since the Molossian royal house was considered Greek, both by its members and by the rest of Greeks. Alexander was Greek also by his father’s side since members of the Macedonian royal house considered themselves Greek so any more discussion about this is entirely pointless. Sadly for your erroneous claims, more recent testimonies like the eminent linguist Olivier Masson concluded that ancient Macedonian is a dialect related to North-West Greek. More sadly for Lou, Macedonians considered Illyrians as Barbarians and totally unrelated to them. On the contrary they considered Greeks as their kinsmen. Again Alexander himself characterised the Illyrians as “foreigners” while he was proud of being Greek like his forefathers. Even more sadly for Lou’s mistaken claims, Macedonians used Greek cavalry along with the Greek allies and Greek mercenaries. Its also important to uncover another empty claim of Lou since anybody with basic clue about ancient Macedonian history is aware that the innovations of Philip II like ie Phalanx were based upon Greek warfare so dear friend better follow my first advice.

Ntemis G21

Lou Giaffo says:

All I can say is that Ntemis better pick up a history book if he doesn’t think that language is the KEY factor in identifying any group of people. Alexander the Great was not only Albanian on his mother’s side, but also on his father Philip’s side by the fact of language, an issue in which historian R.A. Crossland directly addresses the late prehistoric and early classical periods and the linguistic character of the ancient Macedonianians. The principal language of the Balkan region in question was NOT Greek but more or less related to Macedonia’s northern neighbors, the Illyrians or an Illyrian language group, Thracian or Traco-Dacian, and Macedonian. Far from being akin to the Macedonians, The Greeks, in reality, considered the Macedonians to be barbarians and wanted nothing to do with them. They didn’t their change tune, of course, until King Philip and Alexander the Great took over center-stage. Because of this language barrier, and the fact that Alexander did not trust the Greeks, he did not use them in his army, using only their navy. Thus Alexander’s army was comprised largely of Macedonians, Illyrians, Thracians, along with some other kindrid groups. It is also important to point out that the Maacedonians were able to hone up his military skills by fghting for decades against his traditional enemy, the Illyrians, whose kings usually had the upper hand; that is until the advent of King Philip.
and Alexander the Great.

Lou

Ntemis G21 says:

I love when people cannot stop contradicting themselves. So using the same pattern to identify a group of ancient people, Alexander and ancient Macedonians were Greek “as evidenced primarily through language” :)

“As any neutral historian will confirm” Epirus was primarily populated by Epirotans, speakers of a North-West Greek dialect and different people from Illyrians. I dont care about the list of famous historical personas u wish to claim from others but Alexander was Greek and proud of it. ;) Nowhere he identifies himself to have anything to do with Illyrians for the total frustration of Albanian nationalists.

Lou Giaffo says:

I am Lou Giaffo, The author of “Albania: Eye Of The Balkan Vortex,” referred to in one of these comments, in which I was portrayed as biased and not neutral claiming that Alexander The Great was Albanian, since I am of Albanian descent, thus relegating my claim of Alexander The Great as part-Albanian, as being ” totally worthless.” First of all, the Albanians are the most direct descendents of the Illyrians, as evidenced primarily through language. Alexander’s mother Olympias, was Queen of Epirus, a land, which was, as any neutral historian will confirm, predomantly populated by Illyrians. Other great Albanians portrayed in my book “Albania: Eye Of The Balkan Vortex,” include Roman emperors Diocletian, Constantine The Great, Justinian, along with Mother Thersa, Kemel Mustafa (or “Ataturk,” father of modern Turkey, Albanian on his father’s’s side), to mention just a few. Just key in my last name: Giaffo to go to any of my books.

bledar says:

dear sir

i am an albanian national and i have seen your answers to all this books that claim that alexander was of albanian origin. one thing that surprises me most is the amount of foreign writers that write about this issue. why would they write about alexander if his ethnicity was undoutebly greek as you claim. greeks historicly have been pushed northwards towards illyria, latest case by ottomans. troy is in present day turkey and many other ancient greek cities like present day instambul.
u it is a well known fact they the state of greece denies even today it denies the existence of a minotiry in greece (albanian, slav, gipsy etc etc). that is why this writers are writing because as you very well know history has been writen by greek scholars. and i dont blame them cose they trying to glorify their nations history.

best regards from an albanian