President-Elect of FYROM, Đorđe Ivanov, Lashes Out at Journalists [13-IV-2009]

 

April 13, 2009 — FYROMian President-Elect Đorđe Ivanov meets with DUI leader Ali Ahmeti to negotiate future political strategies. At the contact with the press, Ivanov – visibly distressed – addressed journalist about the name dispute with Greece with а quite caustic tone.

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Want more of this? See these Posts:

  1. Branko Geroski Criticizes the Dogmatism of FYROMian Government [16-IV-2009]
  2. NATO’s Jaap de Hoop Scheffer Warns FYROM About the Name Dispute with Greece [29-IV-2009]
  3. Đorđe Ivanov, the New President of FYROM, About the Name Issue [06-IV-2009]
  4. FYROM’s Journalists Condemn President Statement
  5. A Provocative Gesture by Đorđe Ivanov, the New President of FYROM: Brazen Violation of the Interim Accord
Comments
Nick Nikolas says:

ΠΟΛΥΙΣΤΑΝΤΑΙ ΑΙ ΑΠΟΨΕΙΣ ΔΙΑ ΤΙ ΛΕΓΟΝΤΑΙ ΤΑ ΓΡΑΜΜΑΤΑ ΦΟΙΝΙΚΕΙΑ. ΟΦΕΙΛΟΜΕΝ ΟΛΟΙΜΑΣ ΝΑ ΤΑ ΔΙΑΒΑΣΩΜΕΝ ΚΑΙ ΝΑ ΤΑ ΚΑΤΑΝΟΗΣΩΜΕΝ ΚΑΙ ΝΑ ΤΑ ΜΕΤΑΔΩΣΩΜΕΝ ΕΙΣ ΤΑ ΠΑΙΔΙΑΜΑΣ. ΑΠΟ ΤΟ TLG ΕΧΟΜΕΝ ΤΑ ΚΑΤΩΘΙ.

Φοινίκεια δὲ τὰ γράμματα ἐλέγοντο, ὥς φησιν Ἔφορος ὁ Κυμαῖος καὶ Ἡρόδοτος , ἐπεὶ Φοίνικες εὗρον αὐτά•

Εὐφρόνιος δέ, ὅτι μίλτῳ τὸ πρότερον ἐγράφοντο, ὅ ἐστι χρῶμά τι φοινικοῦν•

Ἐτεωνεὺς δὲ καὶ Μένανδρος, ἐπειδὴ ἐν πετάλοις φοινικείοις ἐγράφοντο•
ἤ, ὅπερ κρεῖττόν ἐστιν εἰπεῖν, ὅτι φοινίσσεται ὑπ’ αὐτῶν ὁ νοῦς ἤγουν
λαμπρύνεται•

Ἄνδρων δὲ καὶ Μενεκράτης ὁ Ὀλύνθιος ἀπὸ Φοινίκης τῆς Ἀκταίωνος θυγατρός•

Ἀπολλώνιος δὲ ὁ τοῦ Ἀρχιβίου, ἐπειδὴ οἱ ἀντίγραφοι ἀπὸ φοίνικος ξύλον εἶχον καὶ μετ’ αὐτοῦ ἔγραφον•

Δοῦρις δὲ ὁ Σάμιος ὁ ἱστορικὸς ἐν ὀγδόῃ Μακεδονικῶν ἀπὸ Φοίνικος
τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως τροφοῦ•

Ἀλέξανδρος δὲ ὁ Ῥόδιος ἀπὸ Φοίνικος τοῦ Προνάπου καὶ Εὐρώπης, εὑρόντος αὐτὰ ἐν Κρήτῃ, ὃν ἀπέκτεινε Ῥαδάμανθυς φθονήσας

Μετὰ δὲ τὸν ἐπὶ Δευκαλίωνος κατακλυσμὸν οὐδεὶς τῶν περιλειφθέντων
Ἑλλήνων ἐφύλαξεν αὐτῶν τὴν μνήμην, πλὴν τῶν Πελασγῶν τῶν ἀφ’ Ἑλλάδος εἰς βαρβάρους πλανηθέντων, οὓς καὶ ὁ ποιητὴς δίους καλεῖ,
φάσκων καὶ Λέλεγες καὶ Καύκωνες δῖοί τε Πελασγοί•
παρ’ ὧν μαθόντες πρῶτοι Φοίνικες εἰς Ἕλληνας ἤγαγον, γείτονές τε
βαρβάρων ὄντες καὶ συνεχεῖς ἐμπορίας ποιούμενοι• ὅθεν καὶ Φοινίκεια
κτητικῶς ὀνομάζονται. Οἱ δὲ φοινίκεια λέγουσιν αὐτά, οἱονεὶ φωνίκεια,
ἐπειδὴ φωνῆς ἐγγραμμάτου δυνάμει εἰκόνες εἰσί, μεταβολῆς γεγονυίας
τοῦ ω εἰς τὴν οι δίφθογγον κατὰ τὴν τῶν Βοιωτῶν διάλεκτον, ὥσπερ
ἀγκώνη ἀγκοίνη
ΕΔΩ ΒΛΕΠΟΜΕΝ ΟΤΙ ΟΙ ΦΟΙΝΙΚΕΣ ΤΑ ΠΗΡΑΝ ΑΠΟ ΤΟΥΣ ΠΕΛΑΣΓΟΥΣ.
ΠΟΛΥΙΣΤΑΝΤΑΙ ΑΙ ΑΠΟΨΕΙΣ.

ΑΡΙΣΤΟΤΕΛΗΣ ΓΙΑ ΤΟΥΣ ΦΟΙΝΙΚΕΣ.
ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτοὺς τοὺς Φοίνικας ὑπὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων φασί τινες φοίνικας προσαγορευθῆναι διὰ τὸ πρώτους πλέοντας τὴν θάλασσαν, ᾗ ἂν ἀποβαίησαν, πάντας ἀποκτείνειν καὶ φονεύειν

ΜΕ ΛΙΓΑ ΛΟΓΙΑ ΕΠΑΝΑΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙ ΤΟΝ ΟΜΗΡΟ. ΟΝΟΜΑΣΘΗΣΑΝ ΦΟΙΝΙΚΕΣ ΔΙΟΤΙ ΟΠΟΥ ΕΒΗΣΑΝ ΕΒΑΨΑΝ ΤΟΝ ΤΟΠΟ, ΤΑ ΧΕΡΙΑΤΟΥΣ ΜΕ ΧΡΩΜΑ ΦΟΙΝΙΚΟΥΝ (ΚΟΚΚΙΝΟ, ΑΙΜΑ).

dodoni says:

I agree with you about the alphabet. The only one that says that it isn’t Greek is Herodotus but even he writes it as a personal opinion, that “it seems to him”, after information he took from others.
«Οι δε Φοίνικες ούτοι οι συν Κάδμω απικόμενοι τών ήσαν Γεφυραίοι άλλα τε πολλά οικήσαντες ταύτην την χώρην εισήγαγον διδασκάλια ες τους Έλληνας και δη και γράμματα, ουκ εόντα πριν Έλλησι ως εμοί δοκέει, πρώτα μεν τοίσι και άπαντες χρέωνται Φοίνικες· μετά δε χρόνου προβαίνοντος άμα τη φωνή μετέβαλλον και τον ρυθμόν των γραμμάτων».
(Ηροδότου “Ιστορία, Ε 58″)

Also a good point about Homer. I can’t make any comment about the exact period he lived but surely before the explosion of the volcano of Thyra.

It was always one of my biggest question: How is it possible for Greeks to take an alphabet in the 9th c B.C. and after a hundred years to improve the language as the most perfect all over the world in order Homer to write his poetry. As anyone can understand such a language needs thousands of years of improvement.

Well done my friend! Well done!

Nick Nikolas says:

The history which you reffer to is partially not persuasive. You do not say at times where you get the information from. I will tell you some things which are more accurate than yours.

Let me start from Herodotus. First of all you should know that Herodotus did not know Egyptian.. In all his phrases conserning the Eguptians he says IT SEEMS TO ME. δοκει εμοι. The phrase IT SEEMS TO ME IS NOT SCIENTIFIC.

The phrase I say what the Egyptians say, ⟨⟨Λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι⟩⟩ shows that there is no writing in Egypt.. If there is no written language, there is no linguistic heritage. if there is no language, let me say, there is no culture. It seems to me that all caltural things have been introduced to them because they are unable to use them. I refer to writting.

It seems to me, we learn from Herodotus, that the coptics were not Egyptians.

Herodotus says
All those CARES who are living in Egypt are Coptics and this is a proof that they are foreighners and not Egyptians.

⟨⟨Ὅσοι δὲ Καρῶν εἰσι ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ
οἰκέοντες, οὗτοι δὲ τοσούτῳ ἔτι πλέω ποιεῦσι τούτων ὅσῳ
καὶ τὰ μέτωπα κόπτονται μαχαίρῃσι, καὶ τούτῳ εἰσὶ δῆλοι
ὅτι εἰσὶ ξεῖνοι καὶ οὐκ Αἰγύπτιοι.⟩⟩
Is it possible that they are Greeks? Spartans? Lacedaimons?

Herodotus says: I say what the Egyptians say ⟨⟨Λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι⟩⟩

It seems to me there is no writing in Egypt. I am sure that if Herodotus knew Egyptian would have understood that he converses with people uneducated. ( it is well known he went there with someone who knew Egyptian.).

You say that the Phoenicians brought the alphabet to Greece. I want to ask: Then what happened? Did they leave it in Greece and they left? Where is their language? Where are their literary and philosophical and scientific books? Do the Phoenicians have Homer, Aeschylys, Euripides, Sophocles, Pato, Aristotle, Galenos?.

By the way, do you know what doctor Galenus said 1800 years ago;
those who were born barbarians, are jealous of the Greek civilization goals.
⟨⟨ ὅσοι τῷ γένει μὲν ἔφυσαν βάρβαροι, ζηλοῦσι δὲ τὰ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ἐπιτηδεύματα ⟩⟩.

From Homer we know that the Phoenicians were crooks and rodents and not philosophers and philologists.

Homer
⟨⟨ ἀλλ’ ὅτε δὴ ὄγδοόν μοι ἐπιπλόμενον ἔτος ἦλθε,
δὴ τότε Φοῖνιξ ἦλθεν ἀνὴρ ἀπατήλια εἰδώς,
τρώκτης, ὃς δὴ πολλὰ κάκ’ ἀνθρώπους ἐεόργει ⟩⟩

But when the eighth year in sea came,
then a Phoenix man came knowing deceptive things,
a rodent, planing many bad things for people

The Phoenicians before 1200 B.C. they were Greeks, and because they were bad Greeks, they ceased to exist and took their position other barbarians (you know who they are) and now we have the barbarian Phoenicians.

Talking about Homer, many “historians” want him to have lived around 800 B.C.
The explossion of the volcano of Santorini (thyra) <> took place around 1600 B.C. This is well known.
Homer does not mention anything about it and those who have read Homers poetry know very well that if the explossion of the volcano had taken place before Homer , he would have said a lot about it.

Shall we say Homer lived around 3600 B.C.? If we shall, then the barbarian Phoenicians had a chance to learn writing in 1200 B.C. but they had other things in mind.

It is well Known by all civilized men that Homer has educated the human kind.
Plato has said: This poet has educated Greece. τὴν Ἑλλάδα πεπαίδευκεν οὗτος ὁ
ποιητὴς

All affords to prove that this is not true has led to nowhere. Lately, they, the antigreek minds, Knowing that the ‘egyptians’ and the ‘phoenicians’ did not do the job, invented the INDOEUROPEANS. Does any one know of an indoeuropean book I can read.? I myself do not know.

Comming to the end, I want to repeat what many intellectuals have said.

IF WE TAKE AWAY FROM PEOPLES’ LANGUAGES ALL THE GREEK WORDS, THAN THE NON-HUMAN ANIMALS WILL BE SUPERIOR TO HUMANS.