Demitri Stathopoulos says:

I’d just like to add something troubling about Mr. Danforth’s statements here that caught my eye.

He states “Greek” and “Macedonian” meant very different things in the 4th century BCE than they do now. In my opinion the complex history of the meaning of those words over the past two millennium does not bear on the rights of people in the Balkans to assert their national identities now. ”

And in my opinion, that statement is at the heart of why Mr. Danforth has supported FYROM in the name dispute thus far. He is attempting to create equivalence between our two historical narratives when clearly Greeks have a far far better case than FYROM for the Macedonian cultural space.

From my standpoint, Mr. Danforth effectively just denied Greeks their identity in everything but name.
(neutering it to the period he arbitrarily decided for us)

While he phrases it more politely (and I think he genuinely means well) he effectively seems to be arguing the same arguments some of the Ottomans, communists, and even Nazis used to argue about Greeks (that we are too “mongrel” to be “real” Greeks). While I do not see myself as a “pure” ancient Greek (a common negative stereotype promoted by FYROM nationalists in the media) and I am well aware we were officially Roman citizens during the middle ages, I still on balance consider myself related to ancient Greeks more than anything else for a number of reasons. (largely inescapable)

As Mr. Danforth knows that given the span of time we are talking about, the modern Greek language (demotic) is remarkably similar to the Koine used by ancient Athenians, Macedonians, Spartans, et al (although of course not as close as the artificially constructed Katharevousa) As far as I know, some version of Greek has been in constant active use somewhere in the region for the last several thousand years in an unbroken chain (e.g. as a liturgy language akin to classical hebrew, as an educational language, as the official language of the Roman/Byzantine state, etc…) At bare minimum there appears to have has been some cultural continuity vis-a-vis language alone.

Of course at this juncture some always like to patronizingly inject “Well an American speaks English but that doesn’t make them English”. However, is this such a situation? I would offer English being spoken half way around the world in America or Australia is not remotely the same as Greek being spoken in the same tiny region in and around Greece since ancient times (by many people over the ages that considered ancient Greeks their ancestors and whom modern science seems to indicate are at least to some degree genetically related to ancient Greeks).

While language is not an absolute in all situations, language is clearly not a minor factor in transference in culture as some have disingenuously tried to suggest (much why German”speakers” over the ages are considered Germans, French “speakers” are often called French, etc..). I would also note FYROM nationalists seemingly have no interest whatsoever in preserving ANY version of the Hellenic language spoken by ancient Macedonians. That’s roughly akin to the UK rebranding Polish as “English”while claiming they are trying to preserve the “English” language.

The next argument some of FYROM’s supporters typically present against us with is “Greeks have little in common culturally with ancient Greeks”. For instance, Greeks today (mostly) don’t pray to the ancient gods (largely because early fundamentalist christian Roman emperors forcibly erasing pagan religions). While this is true religion is only a tiny part of culture other than in extreme fundamentalist situations. Contrary to the assertion modern Greeks have nothing in common I say the exact opposite of that claim is true.

Greeks have a tremendous amount in common (probably far more so than most groups that claim an ancient past) The reason for this is simple. Much of ancient Greek outlook is still in active use today-and by no means only by Greeks. The Greek worldview of philosophy, biology, drama, mathematics, physics, logic,the axiomatic method, etc…etc… and many more bits of Greek culture are still in use around the globe to this day.

Some of what Mr. Danforth probably attributes as “American” culture in actuality are ancient Greek culture. While I do not object if Mr. Danforth wishes to rebrand aspects under another name, I do find it rather offense that he attempts to suggest that modern Greeks don’t have things in common with ancient Greeks… when in fact Mr. Danforth himself shares major cultural similarities with ancient Greeks. (he would have had a far far different world view today had ancient Greeks never existed)

In my opinion Mr Danforth’s statement is like Greeks suggesting that Americans cannot claim ownership and kinship with early Americans because…

“the complex history of the meaning of those words over the past two hundred years does not bear on the rights of people in America to assert their national identity now. ”

I have read some of the anthropological theories some of Mr. Danforth’s colleagues seem to subscribe to. They are tremendously political viewpoints (mostly in the extreme left sphere) yet are being pawned off as hard “science”. They constantly frame ethnic identities as being “constructed” and “imagined communities”. While this isn’t entirely inaccurate, this argument is heavily influenced by post modernist nonsense (as Aktritas wisely noted although I’m not sure the advocates realize those influences) The philosophy behind it effectively attempts to give the power to construct (or deconstruct) any ethnic group’s cultural domain in an ad-hoc fashion at their discretion (rather than that of the effected ethnic group)

To give you an example of what I mean….

I’d be curious if Mr Danforth (or any human rights activists that have carte blache have supported FYROM up to now despite our concerns)… would publicly state to secular ethnic Jews living in Israel “the complex history of the meaning of the word “Jewish” and “Palestinian” over the past two hundred years does not bear on the rights of people in the middle east to assert their national identity now”

How about uttering those words to 1.6 billion Chinese “speakers” who claim to be related to ancient Chinese Loring? How about any nation at all that claims an ancient past

If not… I would say Greeks are being singled out in such a fashion effectively amounts to severe prejudice against us. (including by some human rights groups whom in my opinion just because they include the words “human rights” in their name… doesn’t exclude them from having prejudices and politics). Aside from creating arbitrary cutoff dates where Greeks should now redefine their identity , their view of Greeks is inherently racist. (i.e we are too “mongrel” to be “real” Greeks. See Nazi eugenicists)

In my opinion, people like Tompkins, Friedman, Helsinki Greece, FYROM, et al…. don’t see us as “real” Greeks. (i.e. they deny our identity in everything but name) It explains perfectly their anti-Greek attitudes. We are too lowly to be “real” Greeks. Since the past doesn’t count for anything, perhaps Greeks should start using the approach of the former ethnic Bulgarians,

Greeks can call themselves “ethnic Skopians” now, suggest FYROM is “occupied” and “divided”. and make a few changes in one of the dialects of the Greek language so we can rename it the “Skopian language”. Given it is the more modern history (and FYROM are claiming to be related to ancient Macedonians now), does this mean that self-proclaimed “human rights” groups would support us “ethnic Skopians” in registering associations in FYROM under those names?

KE says:

And the joke continues Mr. Stojanov: Your organization just announced:

“Thanks for your questions. We contacted the author, which is one of Macedonia’s preeminent scholars on ancient Macedonian history, and he informed us that he is planning to publish this study mentioned above, along with two books. If anyone wants to contact him, please PVT us and we will send you his e-mail address. His material is ready, however, his colleagues are working to translate the material in English so the documents will be bilingual. If anyone wants to devote time to helping translate, let us know. He intends to send copies to global policymakers. UMD plans to invite him to present his work at the 2nd UMD Global Conference in Toronto in June.”
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=31397&postcount=3 (already archived in webcitation)

The “preeminent” scholar of course is the infamous Aleksandar Donski, the person that spoke to the ghost of Alex Veliki! ;->
Risto Stefov needs to be invited as well -- I’m sure you can help along Mr. Stojanov by reminding the membership of who the Diaspora really listens to.

I do wish Dr. Danforth is re-invited to the 2nd UMD Global Conference -- his academic credentials most certainly need to be buttressed by sharing the podium with more kooks. This is becoming too easy, no pretenses are being kept.

BTW Mr. Stojanov I do hope that in 2010 instead of showing us videoclips of people dancing or singing you provide us with real proof that the said people are your co-nationals and not simply Mr. Karatzios’ relatives. It doesn’t have to be a TV statement like that kid -- just find the videos where people are dancing to the various “patriotic” songs -- you know the one saying “Begajte Grci” that your co-nationals serving as policemen in the area dance while raising their fists, or the more recent ones like Alexandar Car Makedonski, Biser Balkanski. I have no doubt the videos must exist -- they at least make a statement: your co-nationals in Greece are “loyal citizens”… ;->

KE says:

And when Ohrid 2001 becomes too painful one starts dreaming of doing unto others…

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Ffilippetrovski.blog.com.mk%2Fnode%2F175223&sl=mk&tl=en

Χρήστος says:

@Goran Stojanov

I agree about the lies that you were fed. Probably this is the cause of your attempts to use this blog as a propaganda tool, playing an innocent victim with poor reading comprehension skills, while dealing with others in the background. You make ridiculous claims about the “openness” of Maknews, although they restrict free speech. You can say anything you want here.

Every Greek has elements of Macedonian, Thracian, Epirote, Thessalian, Ionian, Continental, Peloponnesian, Aegean and Cretan identity. These identities form the Greek culture. Deal with it.

Bulgarians wanted to unite Macedonia with their motherland. They are the founders of “your” revolutionary movement. You worship ethnic Bulgarians. Deal with it.

Your state is nothing but a toy for the strategic control of the region. Western and Eastern powers couldn’t care less about “macedonism” and your absurd genetic and historical theories. If the Albanians play their cards right, you will fall in a second. There are four of them for each one of you, all in the same region. We’re twice as many and they heavily depend on us economically. The waiting game has a purpose. Deal with it.

Demitri Stathopoulos says:

@Goran

Still avoiding answering. It is quite common for FYROM nationalists to avoid or change the subject when details of your Bulgarian past comes up but whether you accept it or not the facts will not disappear no matter who “recognizes” you.
We will also keep repeating these things ad infinium until enough FYROM nationalists start to realize our quotes and references to your Bulgarian heritage (from the very lips of all your own national heroes) are very real and not “Greek propaganda”.

“The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.(Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.64)

“Ever since 1878 there had been a sizeable Macedonian presence in Bulgaria…Most if not all Macedonians in Bulgaria at this period regarded themselves as ethnically Bulgarian and the refugees were a potential political lobby of considerable size.” (“Ideologies and national identities: the case of twentieth-century” by John R. Lampe, Mark Mazower 2004 page 125)

Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity […] The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one. They reside in a territory once part of a famous ancient kingdom, which has borne the Macedonian name as a region ever since and was called ”Macedonia” for nearly half a century as part of Yugoslavia. And they speak a language now recognized by most linguists outside Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece as a south Slavic language separate from Slovenian, Serbo-Croatian, and Bulgarian. Their own so-called Macedonian ethnicity had evolved for more than a century, and thus it seemed natural and appropriate for them to call the new nation “Macedonia” and to attempt to provide some cultural references to bolster ethnic survival. (Eugene N. Borza, “Macedonia Redux”, in “The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity”, ed. Frances B Tichener & Richard F. Moorton, University of California Press, 1999)

In the 1990s,Macedonians speak a language codified in 1946,spoken by less than two million people, and with a very slender literature. They are members of an Orthodox Church whose authority was established by a socialist political regime in 1968.They are heirs to a 1903 revolution that until the 1940s was described by almost all sources as being Bulgarian. They are descendants from people who were called, and at times called themselves, Serbs or Bulgarians.”
“The history of the Balkan Peninsula?” Ferdinand Schevill page 432)

There is no such thing as “pure” ethnicities Goran (just one more hate filled negative stereotype FYROM nationalists promote against Greeks). Any DNA test will prove every ethnic group on earth is mixed. Our cultures have also mixed. There is Bulgarian, Albanian, Serbian and other “blood” in Greeks too. However, an ethnicity is not just blood or borders. There is also culture. Ours on balance falls in the Greek sphere. Yours in the Bulgarian one. FYROM nationalists freely chose that via their choice of slavic toponyms for their cities, their use of a Slavic language, by identifying with self-identifying Slavs of the past, and by distancing yourselves from the Greekness that ancient Macedonian deeply loved. If you prefer Slavic themes for your country that’s perfectly fine. Others prefer Arab. Others Chinese. Others Spanish. Macedonians just happen to prefer Greek.

FYROM have a couple of choices here.

a. Be propelled by their hatred of Greeks to hide in shame from their ethnic Bulgarian past an eternity and try to omit “Greek” from every ancient history book that includes “Macedonians” next to it. This rationally also would also mean you have to deny the Greek ethnic identity in the hopes that one day someone might believe you are “ancient Macedonians that love their culture”…… yet freely speak Slavic and deride Hellenism at every chance?

Think of your own ill treatment of Greeks (that actually speak a variation of the Koine Greek of ancient Macedonians) then consider what is the likelihood of anyone ever taking your nation seriously?

b. Live in peace with your Macedonian neighbors and accept a compromise solution that no longer requires FYROM to deny our ethnic identity as both Greeks and Macedonians.

Demitri Stathopoulos says:

Why are you avoiding answering Goran? Are you scared to face the truth of your Bulgarian ancestry? Why are you ashamed that your roots are on balance ethnic Bulgarian? That your modern language is essentially a Bulgarian dialect…”typed on a Serbian typewriter” (aka finalized by the communists). Was Tsar Samual a self-identifying “Macedonian”… or a self-identifying Bulgarian Goran?

Nevertheless we agree with you. There are indeed Macedonians in Greece. 2.5 million of them plus the millions of more Greeks that consider ancient Macedonia part of their collective history. There are also a few FYROM nationalists (aka former self-identifying Bulgarians).

Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN POPULATION in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN, independent of gender
(statutes of BMARC co-authored by Delchev and IMRO friends)
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization

“We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness. They took our right to call ourselves Bulgarians, even Macedonians, they intrude their schools and education, so much false and Jesuit, so much as the study of St. Sava and finally they come to the idea for the special Macedonian nationality, which they discover in South Macedonia.”
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Krste_Misirkov.htm

The self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of IMRO are your national icons today right? You seem to confuse nationality with ethnicity. You are Bulgarian by ethnicity…. and ancient Paeonian (or Dardinian) by location.

Goran Stojanov says:

Mr. Karatzios,

The members of the Macedonian ethnic minority of Greece are loyal to their country. They respect its flag, calendar, etc. The question is if their country, the Hellenic Republic, is loyal to them too. Or does it look down upon their language and culture, and even tries to eradicate it.

If the word babo originates from the greek word vavo, than Greeks must have influenced half of Europe into using it. Baba is a word of the core Slavonic dictionary, shared by all Slavic speaking people: Russians, Polish, Ukrainians… As for the custom of kolede (kalenda), it most likely is rooted much deeper than the roman Saturnalia. Similar customs are recorded in the Bible that were at least a thousand years older.

Now I got carried away, and I forgot to wish you a Happy New Year. And instead of me using Google to translate it in Greek, I will utilize a genuine Greek speaker to wish you a Happy New Year:

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And now the same man will wish you a Happy New Year in Macedonian:

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Здраво, јас са викам Спиро Царо. Јас сум од Солун, член на Виножито, студирам математика. Неколку луѓе верват дека нема Македонци во Грција и нема македонска нација и јазик. Јас сум Македонец, јас сум од Солун. И за многу години до сите Македонци во цел свет.

Zdravo, jas sa vikam Spiro Charo. Jas sum od Solun, chlen na Vinozito, studiram matematika. Nekolku lugje vervat deka nema Makedonci vo Grcija i nema makedonska nacija i jazik. Jas sum Makedonec, jas sum od Solun. I za mnogu godini do site Makedonci vo cel svet.

Hi, my name is Spiro Caro. I am from Solun, I am member of Vinozhito and I study mathematics. Few people believe that there are no Macedonians in Greece, and that the Macedonian nation and language do not exist. I am Macedonian and I am from Solun. And I wish all the best to all Macedonians all over the world.

I hope you will accept his best wishes, since he greeted all Macedonians, all over the world. And you are a Macedonian, aren’t you. Pan-Macedonian that is.

Za mnogu godini,
Goran Stojanov

Christos Karatzios says:

Mr. Stoyanov,

It seems that whatever I write to you, you will only selectively pick out what you want to see and comment on this small part leaving out the major points. This is a case of not being able to see the forest from the trees. In this particular case you only got “they are speaking in their ‘native language'”. You avoided all of the following:

1) They are celebrating Christmas on December 25 -- Gregorian calendar.
2) They are speaking Greek among themselves including the band members.
3) The flag behind on the side of the building is the Greek flag of the Star of Vergina (on a blue background).
4) THE CUSTOMS AROUND CHRISTMAS IN GREECE (INCLUDING THE PREFECTURES OF MACEDONIA) ARE NOT NEW. There is no revival Mr. Stoyanov…kolde babo has been going on for decades. I also like to dance salsa and sing in Spanish. Am I Cuban? All of the above points (including my personal experience) make me conclude that they are not your minority Mr. Stoyanov.

Again, kolde is akin to “kalanda” and “babo” is old lady (you are right). The word babo/baba, can be traced back to the ancient Greek “vavo”. Look it up. Now how do you know that the children go around town singing the song you have stated in Greece? I know of children going around singing Greek Christmas carols. I did it when I was young…and yes, I waited around to be given money.

Halloween is the origin of kalanda Mr. Stoyanov? The Celtic Halloween was not celebrated out of Anglo-Saxon countries let alone the Balkans! What are you stating here? That you are also ancient Celts? The tradition of kalanda (going around singing and asking for money or food around Christmas) more likely has origins in pagan ancient Greece and the cult of Dionysios. Why do you avoid this point and try to steer away from Greek influence?

Our region of Macedonia had contacts with Serbs and Bulgarians and there are Slavic influences in Greece. This is not deniable. Make yor point clear Mr. Stoyanov: are we Slavs because of this? Otherwise…dosta spolaiti.

Happy New Year.
Christos Karatzios

Bob says:

“He just posted something about a movie that became popular in Greece about the Civil War. ”

I like the sincere responses. At least maknews posters have no trouble mentioning the role of the autonomists unlike some people in Greece who wish to portray them as genuine left-wingers caught up in a class struggle. Pretending to be an anti-nationalist is easier if you paint the people you support as non-nationalists.

Christos Karatzios says:

Mr. Stoyanov,

Kolende Babo/Kolde Babo/Kolinda Babo is not demotic or katharevusa Greek. However, it is the Slavic version of Kalanda tou Patera…I am sure of the first word: “kalanda” however, “babo” means “father” in Slavic but I also know the word “i babo” to also mean “the grandmother” in certain areas of Greece. Seeing that this is Christmas, I think that “father” is the proper definition.

“Kalanda” for your information is a Greek word which means “carols” as in Christmas carols. It actually comes from the Latin word “calendae” which means the beginning of the month. Also for your information this is an ancient Greek tradition when people (usually children) would go aroung singing praises to their masters, teachers etc on the eve of ancient Greek feasts or holidays (I can anticipate the agitation in your compatriot activists -- oh my -- Greek continuity?! How could that be? There were no “greeks”/geeks/gayreeks until 1829?). In Christian times, kalanda were sung in early January since in the Julian calendar, Christmas is in January. The Church of Greece adopted the Gregorian calendar so kalanda are mostly sung on December 24, or Christmas Eve. One of the commonest Greek carols contains the words: “Kalin esperan arhontes…na bo st’arhontiko sas;” which means “Good evening my lords…may I enter your mansion?”… to sing the news of Christ’s birth? Again. notice the reference to “lords” or “masters” similar to how ancient Greeks would praise their landlords etc on holidays (more Greek continuity -- how terrible!).

Around Christmas time, these traditions are kept all over Greece . The fact that they are called “kolde” by bilingual Greeks means nothing. I have a few comments about the youtube posts you sent me:

1) They are celebrating Greek Christmas since the dates are clearly Dec. 23, 2009. If they were adherents to your church they would be having “kolde” in January wouldn’t they? You might want to also refer to them as “Patriarchists” if we were living 100 years ago. If I am correct, your ancestors were “Exarchists”.

2) They are speaking Greek among themselves and even the band singer praises the “klarino” player in Greek. Why is that if you are implying something that I suspect?

3) Obviously the songs are being sung in Slavic. There is no “restriction”. As well, they don’t seem oppressed to me. I have also danced “lito” or “pustseno”. It does not define my ethnicity.

Contrary to what you believe, the tradition of kalanda, and the lighting of bonfires (or boubounes) is not a new revival. You would like to think that the “Egejski” are waking up as is written in maknews. Sorry, kalanda, boubounes, ragoutsaria, karnavalia etc have been happening in Greece for ages. Sorry no “ethnic” revival here.

If you believe that I can feel as Greek as I want, then can you pass on this information to the VMRO, Vinozhito, the UMD, maknews, MINA, MHRI etc and ask them to cease their propaganda? If you were sincere in wanting to know about kalanda then please also pass on this information to your friends over at maknews. Tell them they have posted about Christian traditions in Greece that have their roots in ancient and pagan Greece.

For more information on kalanda:
http://www.mmb.org.gr/page/default.asp?la=2&id=2321

Thank you,
Christos Karatzios

KE says:

Mr. Stojanov it appears that my extreme sense of sarcasm (given how much I enjoy the animal parallels drawn daily in the forums you frequent) has really managed to confuse you. Just to save you the trouble -- I did not get a “no kozi allowed” message -- my registration attempt simply never progressed beyond the initial e-mail telling me that I would receive a second e-mail to complete the process. Lubi’s filters sniffed the kozi in me out I guess. 🙂

Goran Stojanov says:

KE,

As for the “no kozi allowed” reject message, I just posted a question on maknews.com.

Now you realize, don’t you, that most of the participants of this forum are, or were, Greek citizens. There are few Macedonians from the other parts of Macedonia, and few foreigners that participate, but the vast majority are Macedonians that live in, or originate from the Aegean Macedonia. There are some ethnic Greeks too. One person that goes by SoutherNeighbour has nice civil posts, and he receives equally civil treatment. He just posted something about a movie that became popular in Greece about the Civil War.

As to who will force Greece to sign/ratify the CoE minority treaties and how, look back at the Ottoman Empire. What destroyed it? Let me help you: indebtedness. While Greece is able to service its debts, the financiers will tolerate it. When it start to slip up, they will hit it where it hurts most. Yugoslavia was dismantled for a debt that was much smaller: 20 bil dollars, compared to the Greek that is at least 20 times bigger.

As for the preamble, Serbs are included now, since 2001. They were initially omitted because Miolsevic declared that he will attack whoever makes Serbs a minority. After he was safely buried under the pear three, we were able to do the Serbian minority a justice. The other minorities are much smaller. But if Ms. Gatsoulis finds credible sources that confirm a Greek minority in R. Macedonia of 35 thousand, I don’t have any issues to amend the preamble with Greeks as a traditional minority in R. Macedonia.

Mr. Karatzios,

I understand you very well. And as I said before, you are free to feel as Greek as you wish.

Now I understand that an old custom is being revived in the Greek portion of Macedonia lately. Its name is ΚΟΛΝΤΕ ΜΠΑΜΠΟ. Since I don’t understand Greek, I asked the Google to help me, and the Greek to English translation came up as: Cold Bamboo!? Then I tried the Greek to Macedonian translation and I got: Студената Bamboo.

What does this phrase mean? Is it demotiki or katharevousa?

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Christos Karatzios says:

Mr. Stoyanov,

My native language is Greek. I understand a few things in the slavic idiom spoken in the area of Dytiki Makedonia (Western Macedonia) through my mother’s side of the family. It is not my native nor my mother “language” as you call it. I can’t say that it is fair of you to characterize a family of dialects as “native” to the region of Macedonia. What is native Mr. Stoyanov in a region that has been inhabited by many peoples? When do we start the clock and consider the beginning of something native? Various forms of Greek have been spoken IN CONTINUITY in the region since at least the 6th century BC. I suppose this would be native now wouldn’t it?

The standard language codified for political reasons in Skopje (ARTIFICIALLY I may add -- many Bulgarian, Greek, Turkish and Albanian words were purged by the linguists of Blaze Koneski NOT allowing the “language” to naturally evolve into a standard form) is not understandable by my family members at least. I know this first hand as many in my family say that what is spoken in Skopje (when they are shown TV news from Skopje) sounds “too Russian” or “too Serbian”. A few words are understandable but only in a disjointed manner and not enough to make sense of what is spoken. However among themselves they can speak a slavic idiom quite easily. I would listen to my grandmother speak with her sisters when they wanted to say something secret about me when I was growing up. I found it amusing that they also spoke something which they described as a “bastardemeni glossa” or a “bastardized tongue” -- a tongue without a mother as it had Bulgarian, Greek, Turkish, Serbian, Vlach, and Arvanite words. In case you would like to know, no Greek policeman or secret service agent threatened them or charged them for this “crime” as your friends in the UMD or maknews like to claim about the oppressed “Egejski”. Moreover, as a child I was never warned not to speak this in public.

The various idioms spoken in our region have been known as “Voulgarika” for generations.

In contrast to what you claim, modern Greek and Katharevousa are mutually intelligible and most Greeks (including myself) understand Katharevousa Greek. It is like speaking modern English and Shakespearian English. The “Voulgarika” idioms and the standard language of your country are not as understandable as you would like them to be. My family should serve as the clearest witnesses.

I will leave you with the immortal words of Michel Paillares reporting to Hilmi Pasha in his book “L’Imroglio Macedonien”:

“What do I care about ethnologic or linguistic theories?…That which interests me is that all these Macedonians, regardless of what langauge they speak, prefer to get crucified by the Bulgarians instead of to deny their Hellenism…These unsung heroes are Greeks, and I kneel in front of their supreme grandeur.”

And the words of former Italian Minister of Foreign Affairs, entitled “La questione Rumeliota (Macedonia, Vecchia Serbia, Albania, Epiro) e la politica italiana”, published in 1908 as number 1 in a series by the Biblioteca Italiana on foreign policy:
“Through their patriotic sentiments and their devotion to Greek traditions and Greek culture, the Slav-speaking Greeks of Macedonia express their vigorous determination to be Greeks.”

Many of my family members where killed by Bulgarian komitadjis because they wouldn’t declare Exarchist and Bulgarian. My great grandmother died with the word “Grcki” as a last cry. Please spare me the repeated attempt to “awaken” the “native” out of me with maps from Wikipedia.

Razbra Mr. Stoyanov?

Nina Gatzoulis says:

Stojanov said: “They are not 1400 as I thought (and didn’t check) but about 400…”

I do have to bring up the issue of the Greeks in FYROM because that’s a subject that has been put under the carpet by many entities that there is no significant Greek population in FYROM, but others insist the opposite. And let me inform some people of this thread that the Pan-Macedonian Association does not follow the lines of any government. If there is reason to express our opinion, we will expresess it…

First of all let’s take a look at what Dr. Chrysanthoulos has written:

Μια ανεπίσημη στατιστική του 1960
Ο Μιχάλης Χρυσανθόπουλος στο βιβλίο του “Ο Ελληνισμός της Δημοκρατίας των Σκοπίων” (1993) αναφέρει πως τo 1960 υπήρξε μια ανεπίσημη στατιστική στην “Ο.Γ.Δ της Μακεδονίας”, που όμως δεν δημοσιεύτηκε ποτέ (πηγή του είναι το “Savezni zavod za Statistika -- Statisticki Kalendar Federa tivna Narodna Republica Yugoslavia” -- Beograd 1959 -- σελ. 23).
Με βάση την στατιστική αυτή , στο κρατίδιο το 1960, δήλωναν :
· “Μακεδόνες” 726.000
· Αλβανοί 200.000
· Τούρκοι 104.000
· Βούλγαροι 80.000
· Σέρβοι 35.000
· Αιγαίοι Μακεδόνες 35.000
· Βλάχοι 20.000
· Έλληνες 15.000
· Άλλοι 11.000
· ΣΥΝΟΛΟ 1.226.000

The translation of the above paragraph:

Michael Chrysanthopoulos in his Book ‘Hellenism in Skopje’s Democracy” (1993) states that in 1960 there was an unofficial statistic which took place in the “Yugoslav Democracy of Macedonia”. This statistic was never published. His source is: “Savezni zavod za Statistika -- Statisticki Kalendar Federa tivna Narodna Republica Yugoslavia” -- Beograd 1959 -- pg. 23).
According to this statistic in 1960 the numbers are as follows:
· “Macedonians” 726.000
· Albanians 200.000
· Turks 104.000
· Bulgarians 80.000
· Serbs 35.000
· Aegean Macedonians 35.000
· Vlachs 20.000
· Greeks 15.000
· Others 11.000
· Total 1.226.000
http://northmacedonians.blogspot.com/2008/02/1960.html

There is also the German census of 1941 which according to General Th. Goulas on a total population of 800,000 one hundred thousand Greeks by genus and Christian Orthodox by religion were registered…

I would suggest that we don’t treat this issue so frivolously.

Nina