Fictitious Academia: Political activism, covered in academic cloak in the University of Utah

Pan-Macedonian Association

Fictitious Academia:
 Political activism, covered in academic cloak in the University of Utah
 

By Nina Gatzoulis*
 
The presentations of the majority of the academics participating in the 7th “Macedonian”- North American Conference on “Macedonian” Studies at the University of Utah that took place from November 5-7, 2009, amounted to an anti-Hellenic delirium. The Universities of Utah and Chicago jointly organized the conference, in cooperation with the United “Macedonian” Diaspora (UMD) of Skopje based in Washington D.C.
 
Most of the presenters, with a few exceptions, aimed to launch an aggressive propaganda attack against Greece, presenting their views without scientific and academic research criteria, without references to sources thereby promoting unilateral research.
 
Dr. Vasiliki Neofotistos in her presentation “Alexander the Great and the mythic lands”, implied that the educator Thanasis Lerounis approached the Kalash tribe in Afghanistan through an education program, funded by Greek ministries and thus created the myth of the Kalash as descendants of the soldiers of Alexander the Great. However, she claimed that “Macedonia” approached the tribe of the Hunza in 2008 on private initiative. Dr. Neofotistos used the term “Macedonia” freely, rather than the Republic of “Macedonia,” creating the impression that the entire region of Macedonia (in Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania) belongs to Skopje. Dr. Neofotistos referred to FYROM as “Macedonia”, and she only named the Slavs as “Macedonians”, while the Albanians citizens of “Macedonia” were referred as “the Albanians”, which is academically unacceptable.
               
An unrivaled individual in anti-Hellenism was Dr. Philip Shashko, whose presentation titled “Tasos Kostopoulos on Macedonia and the Slavs in Greece: When a forbidden language speaks truth to power”, was an eruption of hatred against Greece. Dr. Shashko cited, and presented as scientific evidence, the contents of Tasos Kostopoulos’ book (journalist of the Sunday addition Ios in the Greek newspaper Eleftherotypia)!
 
The culmination of the political-activism and racism with a “scientific” cover was Dr. Loring Danforth’s presentations. Dr. Danforth spoke about the research he has completed for the book he has co-authored with the Dutch anthropologist who teaches at the University of Thessaly, Dr. Riki van Boeschoten, entitled “Macedonian refugee children from the Greek Civil War”. Although it was stated that during the Civil War in Greece, Greek and “Macedonian” children were kidnapped and led by the communists into communist countries, their research did not include any Greek children.
 
Mary Rossova from a village of  “Aegean Macedonia” in her presentation “From Trnaa to Toronto: The life story of a dete begalec”, recounted how her family with the help of partisans fled to escape the “bad” Greek soldiers in locations across the Iron Curtain countries. She talked about her life in the communist countries and how she finally arrived in Canada, “although,” as she mentioned “a capitalist country” she lives happily with her family there. Trying to give a bad image of Greece she said that upon visiting her homeland in “Aegean Macedonia”, she found her old house in ruins and complained that one…Greek official at the border treated her with arrogance!
 
Traian Dimitriou, also a dete begalec (refugee child) in Dr. Danfroth’s research presentation titled “A Macedonian child in a Greek technical school during the Greek Civil War”, narrated how he ended up in a children’s camp of Queen Frederika in Leros. His vast criticism was that the trip by boat to the island “was awful because the sea was stormy!” He only took weekly baths (!) and was forced to sing the Greek national anthem daily! There was reporting by the ‘victims’ of the camps that many of the children were sold to wealthy families. When the members of the panel were asked by a representative of the Pan-Macedonian Association if there are documented sources for these allegations, they admitted they had none.
 
Both children of the Greek Civil War stressed that they did not want to leave their homeland, but had to remain in the former communist countries against their will. Since the communist governments kept them against their will in what way is it Greece’s fault? They failed to indicate that they had every opportunity to go back and stay in Greece when the Greek government through various U.N. resolutions, called on all Greek citizens who were displaced during the Greek Civil War in communist countries to go back to their homeland (see: UN Resolutions 382 (V Section C), 1950; 618 (VII), 1952; 517 (VI), 1952). There is no doubt regarding Greece’s and the UN’s position on this issue, even though Dr. Danforth implied that the U.N. resolutions were inconclusive. Therefore this claim is not true as is also evident by the strong support of the U.S. Government at the time at all levels. President Harry S. Truman addressing the Congress and with reference to Resolution 514, did not leave any doubt about the strong support of the U.S. to the U.N. resolutions: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=13766.
 
It is indeed noteworthy that FYROM accuses Greece that she banished her children, while the Slav/communists kidnapped the Greek children from all over Greece in order to “protect” them. Obviously they chose to forget that the mastermind behind the mass kidnapping of the children was the right hand of Tito, Edvard Kardelj. If the “child saving” was done to protect children, how do they substantiate their claim that the camps of Queen Frederika were not protecting the children?
               
The Danforth /van Boeschoten research was unilateral, and only examined the cases of children who willingly were led by their communist parents, or even sent to Iron Curtain countries with the consent of their parents. Conversely, among the expatriates who attended the conference was Mrs. Irene Damopoulou Karatzios.  Mrs. Karatzios was one of the children amongst thousands of other children with or without parents who were abducted by partisans and were led into several Iron Curtain countries against their will. When Dr. Danforth was asked if Mrs. Karatzios could speak about her plight, he prohibited her to speak in a peremptory manner. In a private discussion with Mrs. Karatzios, Dr. Danforth said he read the book “The Cry of Irene” which was written about her and implied that her claims are untrue!
 
An excerpt of Mrs. Karatzios’ plight in the book “The Cry of Irene”, authored by Dr. Ioannis Bougas, is provided:  (ISBN: 969-454-022-X email: erodhios@erodhios.gr):
 
My mother’s denial to give my little brother and myself away to the communist guerillas, so that we might be delivered into the iron curtain countries, a deed organized by the KKE, placed her in the ranking of a shady “ reactionary” and put the entire family as KKE’s target for revenge. First they took my mother to help the rebels in the mountains carrying materials, where she was often physically tortured. My brother, along with other residents of our village and I, were ordered to abandon our homes and forced to live in makeshift huts in the nearby forest.
 
Later, they led us cross the borders secretly and we entered Albania. After walking on foot for several days, almost without food or water, we arrived in a dirty prison labor camp. Once reunited with our mother, we spent some time in various prisons in Albania, and finally we were dragged in the galley of Loulé in Romania, where my brother and I attended the Russian-Romanian schools of their “father” and “god” Stalin. In addition we suffered incredible pressure from the leaders of KKE to give up our motherland Greece and become Slavomacedonians           
 
One of the most balanced and informative presentations was that of Dr. Bill Darden titled “Greek articles vs. Slavic relatives in the Strumchki (Makedonski) Apostol and other early Slavic text” which focused on the difficulty of translating the Bible from Greek to Slavic.
 
Dr. Emilija Crenkovska presented on “The language of the Old Church Slavonic writing of Macedonia in the period of the Byzantine and Ottoman Empire”, in the “Macedonian” language, without translation or even a written summary of the content of her speech. Members of the Pan-Macedonian Association, knowledgeable of the language of  FYROM and the local Greek slavophone idioms explained that Dr. Crenkovska spoke in the Serbo-Bulgarian language of FYROM that she named “Macedonian”. When a member of the Pan-Macedonian Association conveyed this information to the panelists he did not receive an answer, and some individuals in the audience urged the presenters not to pay attention to such interventions!
 
Quite notable was the reaction of the Dr.Victor Friedman, Professor of Linguistics and Balkan Studies from the University of Chicago. When a member of the Pan-Macedonian Association tried to approach him in a friendly manner, the academic exploded and started shouting, “the ‘Macedonians’ have a right to exist!” Also one could characterize as inappropriate the efforts of Dr. Friedman and Andrew Graan (doctoral candidate under the auspices of Dr. Friedman) to distract the university journalist who was interviewing Mrs. Karatzios and the writer of this article. Addressing the journalist, Dr. Friedman said: “take everything they say with a grain of salt…”
 
Members of the Pan-Macedonian Association U.S.A have attended several propaganda events organized by FYROM and its Diaspora in American universities. Unfortunately, while the Greek embassy is being informed of such events, the Greek state is absent in FYROM’s efforts to defame Greece. It is particularly important that representatives of the Greek State participate in such conferences to refute the ignorant argumentation of the academic community of FYROM.  Moreover, relevant scientific conferences with the participation of foreign academics have to be seriously considered by Greece in the future. In addition the libraries of American universities should be enriched by contemporary English-language material on the issue of Macedonia. These failures generate “data” which Hellenism will be forced to face in the future.
 
*Mrs. Gatzoulis is the Supreme President of the Pan-Macedonian Association USA

Related posts:

Comments
KE says:

Also Mr. Stojanov -- please spare us the “Future Perfect” map from Wikipedia -- it shows Slavic being spoken in Greece in regions that even Kanchov did not register any Bulgarian villages. That said agenda-driven person still is allowed to hijack entries is indicative of the many things that are wrong with Wikipedia these days. But if you insist on attempting to bring Mr. Katatzios back to the “national fold” maybe you can take this Wikipedia map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulgarian_dialect_map-yus.png
change the title a bit (after all as they say on maknews, those Tatars -- meaning the Bulgarians -- took their language from us) and ask him about it. After all Fut.Perf. actually says “after a source which may well be better in some respects than what I had”…

KE says:

Mr. Stojanov -- the one time I tried to register at maknews (and all I wanted was to PM Mr. Zvezdakoski at the time as he genuinely seemed concerned about something- I later realized it would have been a lost cause) I was rejected at the registration level (you know the “no kozi allowed” sign at the door. 😉 So please spare me the openness. ;->

I explained my objections about the way in which you presented the results. I notice that apart from the 2007 vs. 2001 issue you have not taken the trouble to fix the many other errors I noted, including the meaning of the 3rd table and the counting issues (which further messes up your numbers).

They “took them seriously” because you presented them as “proof that speakers of our language exist in Greece from Greek sources” -- when in fact the Greek government in its official statements does not deny there exist Greek citizens that also speak Slavic local idioms. As for the actual numbers as you clearly see of course they rejected them as they are lower than their expectations (I do read the same thread as you -- look at the commentary beyond the initial questioning of the meaning of the tables).

Regarding the CoE treaties that Greece has not signed/ratified I really wonder who will force it to sign/ratify them? How? It is not a requirement for membership in the CoE to have signed and ratified these treaties. I only wish our diplomats had been smarter (like the French) and not even signed the FCRNM.

So regarding the census number of Greeks in tfYRoM we’re back at where we would have been had you not taken us in an excursion based on a fictional Samaras prompted extraordinary census. 😉 As for their education, just like the smaller communities in most of the civilized world, it is not state-provided when it comes to the teaching of the Greek language (or other aspects of Greek culture). The associations I mentioned are private ones (much like the “NGO” -- in fact “private non-profit” of your pal Natsoulidou in Edessa) and any teaching of Greek goes on in private, without any help from the state (and if you are to believe the interviews of some of the teachers in Greek newspapers with some hindrance from the state). Their membership is concentrated in certain areas (Bitola, Gevgelija, Strumica, Pehcevo (there is an interesting twist to their story), Skopje). And the number of students they claim is far larger than what would account for a total population of 400. BUT because unlike yourself I am fully aware of the tendency of minority activists and their patrons to blow up their numbers I choose to stand by the census number even if it may be a lower one. As for Greek programs on the radio, are you referring to the propaganda in Greek that still continues to this day (from Yugoslav times) addressed at your “unredeemed brothers and sisters” across the border? ;-P BTW I’m just stating facts here -- not complaining. It makes no sense to expend state funds on the parochial interests of a very small groups of citizens. I’m also fundamentally opposed to the notion of separate complete educational structures for minorities as a matter of state policy. It ends up creating an expectation of a completely separate vertical society and leads to alienation and eventually instability -- case in point the Albanians in your country.

Now your country officially in the pre-amble of its constitution recognizes certain “nationalities” (a Yugoslav nomenclature relic no doubt) for which it offers state-provided mother-tongue education and other state benefits: Only Albanians, Turks, Roma and Vlachs are named -- the rest are left conveniently unnamed. (Actually I’m not sure of a separate educational structure for Bosniaks and Serbs which are the two other groups with very strong minority population representation). Is there state provided minority education in Croation, Montenegrin or Bulgarian (whose census numbers are above 1000)? What about state-provided radio programs in Bulgarian?

Goran Stojanov says:

Χρήστος Says:

The various mixed dialects of Macedonia PRECEDE the “standard Macedonian” language

That is true. All standard languages are created from their corresponding dialects. Naturally the dialects existed prior to the creation of the standard language.

Χρήστος says:

The various mixed dialects of Macedonia PRECEDE the “standard Macedonian” language, which was manufactured less than seven decades ago. These dialects are spoken BEFORE the invention of a “Macedonian nation”, by VARIOUS ethnic groups, such as Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians and Turks.

Goran Stojanov says:

Mr. Karatzios,

The fact that you understand (to some extent) your native Macedonian dialect, but you have trouble understanding the standard Macedonian language is quite normal. You never had a chance to learn it, and standard languages for all nations are to some extent synthetic languages. Compare this to Greeks and katharevousa. Even after long years of study, most Greeks have trouble using it.

In the case of the standard Macedonian language, though, you would only need few hours to get used to the phonetic differences between your local dialect and the standard language. And, since Macedonian language is developed around the central dialectal group (from Lerin on the south, to Skopje on the north):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Macedonian_Slavic_dialects.png

it is very likely that your native dialect is close to the standard language. The spelling is very simple, it is phonetic, so learning it is a breeze.

I don’t know what your native dialect is, but here is an article about all Macedonian native dialects, and you can get some more info about your native dialect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialects_of_the_Macedonian_language

Goran Stojanov says:

KE,

A simple thank you would have been enough. You wanted to make this research more widely known, and I published it. If I made any mistakes, you are more than welcome to correct them. As you know, maknews.com is a forum, so you can post there too, as long as you keep a civil attitude.

An apology would be appropriated too, since you expected Macedonians to openly reject the results of the study, while they took them seriously, with a healthy dose of skepticism (much like you did).

As far as the Framework Convention on the Rights of National Minorities and a European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages that Greece still refuses to sign, don’t worry about it. Greece will sign it. So far it was able to evade it, claiming that Greece does not have ethnic minorities. This is as believable as if it claimed that the Aegean See is a fresh water see.

As for the number of Greeks in R. Macedonia, my bad, you are correct. They are not 1400 as I thought (and didn’t check) but about 400. Although they are a small minority, they still have cultural institutions (as you confirmed), and, if they live concentrated in certain areas, they probably have education on their language too. I know that the Aromanian (Vlach) minority does have full set of minority rights: media, cultural institution and education.

Παρατηρητήριο Συμφωνιών Μπετόβεν says:

Απ’τη μία γράφουν για “national unification” των Σλαβομακεδόνων και από την άλλη πολύ θα ήθελαν να καταργηθεί η συμφωνία της Αχρίδας γιατί “the cause (against the Ohrid agreement) is committed to reversing the attack on our sovereignty”.

Όχι, σίγουρα, δεν έχουμε να κάνουμε με εθνικιστές αλλά με αθώα θύματα, άτομα που πρέπει να αντιμετωπίσουμε με φιλευσπλαχνία κ.λ.π.

Χρήστος says:

@KE

They still think that they can get away with it.

Zvezdakoski’s post about the “macedonian cause” was edited numerous times. The last one was yesterday.

Now:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=17026&postcount=1

“The cultural unification and solidarity of the Macedonian people living in all parts of Macedonia”

Before:

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amacedoniantruth.org+%22cultural+and+national+unification+of+all+Macedonians%22

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:estg0ulk9fUJ:www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php%3Fp%3D17026+site:macedoniantruth.org+%22cultural+and+national+unification+of+all+Macedonians%22&hl=en&strip=1

“The cultural and national unification of all Macedonians living in all parts of Macedonia”

Oh, no, that Google cache dude is a babbler! No more “national unification”, Koloski? No more Solun for you?

You know, I’m thinking that they’re following Einstein’s advice. “The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources”, he said.

Let them be creative!

And the cherry on top: yesterday, UMD congratulated Zvezdakoski!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=30532&postcount=125

“Rogi, you have done an excellent job, and once it is done, it should be translated in Macedonian and sent to all Macedonian MPs and government officials and as an open letter in the media.”

KE says:

Ms. Efstathiou-Danilovich wrote:

“I’m not sure about another person involved though. All that Mr Zvezdakoski did, was telling the truth.

Maybe that’s why he became a scapegoat, a decoy for sham pleas and figments. A lesson for future generations, indeed.”

The funny thing is that he became a scapegoat on December 3rd (once it became clear it was impossible to disassociate -- as Mr. Mitreski initially tried to do -- the text from his persona and any reader making the obvious connection to UMD). Several days before that, on the 25th of November 2009 the “official” UMD presence on the forum where the text was getting further refined was congratulating the whole effort, pushing for a “genocide” angle and making no effort to erase the “national unification” target.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=27878&postcount=108
As as yesterday the smarter wolves of the pack (again a compliment on the craftiness of the letter that they wrote a few months ago as a counter to the Miller one) from Australia (AMHRC) got involved and clearly pushed for the “national unification” to be deleted to avoid getting exposed. Mr. Zvezdakoski was self-delusional enough to claim there is nothing in his concept of “national unification” that means border changes (although in the same breadth he claims that the European Union doing away with borders -- which it doesn’t in reality -- helps the unification) but those of us with long memories remember him (in the same thread) pushing for language that allows for “unification”:
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=17201&postcount=21
“Or if in future unforseen events were caused which led to unification of geographical Macedonia into the ‘Federation of Macedonia’ and so on…”
It appears the smarter voices won over and the reference will be erased -- but scripta manent (and have already been archived using secure 3rd party services to avoid people erasing their tracks) and the rationale (plus the fact that no-one objected to the original wording for months) of the principals including the UMD is recorded.

Given these developments I’m not even sure what Mr. Zvezdakoski was scapegoated for anyway…

KE says:

Mr. Stojanov,

“Thank you for the PDF’s. I’ve never seen them before, and I’ll make sure they do get wider publicity (as far I can do). I would appreciate if we keep the skinheads on both sides out of this discussion. There are many other places where they can kick and scream.”

That would be great if only for the fact that one of us hangs around with them and NEVER has opposed them. ;->

Moreover it would be nice if you had posted the information using a proper (and not a misleading) title and accurate text (2007? From an article from 2001? and so many more other errors -- for example major deviant dialects were included as well, not just languages, and they were not necessarily mother tongues, eg. Kostas’ Novakis’ wife would count as well). At least (by presenting it in a misleading manner instead of saying “hey guys, just maybe our estimates of people who speak our language in Greece need to be revised downwards) you got your well deserved ;-> congratulations on the “find”… ;->

“So this study concludes that on a national level there are 0.6% / 0.9% (I could not figure out what is the difference between the two files) speakers of Macedonian in Greece.”

The first figure is that of active speakers and the second one of people that to a certain degree understand it but cannot speak it (you can call it passive speakers -- Mr. Karatzios would count as one I suppose if asked). The third file is the one related to ancestry (people who had at least one grandparent speak the language).

“That is not terribly different from the Encyclopedia Britannica’s assessment of 1.8%. It may be in the margin of error (or margin of fear).”

No Mr. Stojanov -- Britannica talks of ethnic groups, not simply speakers of the language (which would include children of mixed marriages as well BTW), much less those that are your co-nationals as Mr. Karatzios has very clearly explained. Now when an anonymous survey done by a well respected private polling firm will generate nasty comments about the “margin of fear” it’s impossible to have me believe that you could ever accept a census done by the Greek state whose results were not to your liking.

“What I find interesting is that in the age distribution chart, even the age group 18-24 showed 0.6% of speakers, but the age group 55-64 showed 0%. Is this also in the margin of error, or in the margin of fear? Arvanitika, on the other hand, holds up quite strong: 6.4% on a national level, some 800 thousand people.”

That table is one of ancestry -- the most interesting from a historical perspective and at the same time the most flawed given the single answer limitation. And the IOS journalists did comment on that 0%. Or it could have been an error in the table as people older than that bracket who lived during the stupidly repressive Metaxas era did declare something higher than 0%. In general one would expect an upwards trend as one goes up in age but for almost all (both Greek dialects and non-Greek languages) that age group (and the one after that to a lesser extent) show up with lower figures. Are the speakers of Greek dialects also included in your “margin of fear”? ;->

In any case you should actually be basing these figures on a 10 million Greek citizen number and not an 11 million Greek resident number. And please tell that smartass Tsutsul (the very same one that was insisting once upon a time that Greece was killing the villagers of the Vevi region using the Meliti power plant that was in fact built specifically -- and after a lot of lobbying by the “Grkomen” MPs of Florina -- to provide jobs to a financially depressed region) that the Thessaloniki prefecture is part of Central Macedonia and he cannot double-count figures when he multiplies percentages and overall population.

“Now you said something like: If Greece decides to organize itself around the languages people speak. It is not about that at all. Greece, like all other countries in the world, is obligated to protect its linguistic minorities. To protect them it means: to provide media, education and cultural protection for these minority languages. Greece does not get to decide if it likes that or not. UN already sent an independent expert and she passed the verdict.”

In fact Mr. Stojanov if what you said was the case there would have been no reason for the Council of Europe to create a Framework Convention on the Rights of National Minorities and a European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages. Everything would be covered by existing UN treaties and conventions. But the latter only address individual rights -- your right to speak the language or listen to it. The aforementioned agreements are the ones that specify media and education. And guess what -- Greece is not bound by them as it never ratified the former and it never even signed the latter. Mrs. McDougal’s report spoke of “self-identification, freedom of expression and freedom of association”, the latter referring to the issues of the House of the Macedonian Culture and a few associations describing themselves as Turkish.

As for the illegality of “Slavomacedonian” coming from a person that insists on using Lerin for Florina -- what can I say… Sue Cjivic first for coming up with the term MacedoSlav and making it popular. Maybe you can first get your house in order and drop all the crap about “Aegean Macedonia”… On my part just to humour you I’ll start using tfYRoM.

Regarding the 1994 census (which I knew about as a repeat census to address the numbers of Albanians) you’ll allow me to come back with a few more interesting details when I get the time. For the time being we can clearly see that your anecdotes about Greece prompting this census were … well, just anecdotes:
http://www.alb-net.com/pipermail/amcc-news/2002-October/000054.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/17/world/macedonia-census-just-inflames-the-disputes.html
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/Johnstone/fic.htm

I quote from the last article:
“Albanian political leaders complained that this census, which they had deliberately boycotted, did them an injustice. Albanians really accounted for up to 40% of the population, they insisted. These complaints reached the ears of officials in Germany, historically a protector of Albanian national interests in the Balkans, especially in opposition to the Serbs. Out of sensitivity to Albanian claims, Ambassador Geert-Hinrich Ahrens, head of the Working Group for Human Rights and Minorities within the International Conference on Former Yugoslavia, called for an extraordinary census to be held in Macedonia under supervision of the “international community”. Thus in 1994 a second census was conducted and paid for essentially by the European Union on Macedonian territory — an extraordinary intervention in the internal affairs of a nominally “independent” state.”

Moreover the number of Greeks in that census was not about 1400 but actually less than the most recent one: 368!
http://faq.macedonia.org/information/ethnic.makeup.html#ethnic

Did you really think you could pull another fast one on us Mr Stojanov? Are you not in the slightest bit concerned about your credibility?

Finally please relay to that smartass kykypajko on maknews that not only are we free to use whatever language we like but we do. He can have an “Ai kihou” from me expressed in the most popular minority language of Greece.

Goran Stojanov says:

Mr. Karazios,

You can be as Greek as you want to be. And you can vote for whatever political party you wish.

I wish you a Merry Christmass too

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

Mr Stojanov was asked twelve times about his primary source regarding Mr Droutsas’ statement. He pretends that he doesn’t see the questions and avoids giving a straight answer since December 17. It could be said that, in a manner true to his roots, he continues the tradition of fabricating reality.

I’m sure that his interlocutors, Mr Danforth and Mr Mitreski included, will be proud about him (there’s only an elephant in the room, close your eyes and his existence is nullified). I’m not sure about another person involved though. All that Mr Zvezdakoski did, was telling the truth.

Maybe that’s why he became a scapegoat, a decoy for sham pleas and figments. A lesson for future generations, indeed.

Christos Karatzios says:

Mr. Stoyanov,
How nice of you to post on maknews.com the pdf’s from iospress that KE provided yesterday. Just more proof of a “Macedonian minority” that Greece suppresses right? The readers of maknews.com must be extatic now and I am sure that they will be congratulating you on your discovery of gold.
However, there is no information as to ethnic identity in those files nor how accurate this data is. We are therefore left to understand that there is a Cretan minority since there are “Cretan” speakers as per the inevitable logic that will materialize on maknews.com.
I would also like to point out: 0.6% total “Slavomacedonian” -- direct quote -- speakers in Greece (60 000)…5% in Dytiki Makedonia (Western Macedonia)…and probably 100% in some grandmother’s house in some village in some mountain…much less than half of the 200 000 in Britannica and Dimitras’s dreams. Again, no mention of ethnic affiliation! Many of my family members (the older generation) would be included there and I even understand a few words of one of the various Slavonic dialects -- NOT the language codified in 1945 in Skopje. This is how I knew that the “j” in your name is a “y” sound. Go ahead though…tell me my family and I are not Greek. Yes my family (some who are professors and teachers and businessmen) in Greece are self-hating brainwashed “Macedonians” (“Grecomans” how terrible!) that are oppressed and your compatriots from Vinozhito and the VMRO can’t wait to awaken them and emancipate them right? For you information some voted for LAOS and most vote for Nea Dimokratia. How could this be Mr. Stoyanov? Why indeed are the “Egejci” not voting for Vinozhito? Could it be that the vast majority (except the 2000 who do vote for Vinozhito) know that they are Greek? Most of their ancestors fought to keep Hellenism in Macedonia (first against the Ottomans, then against the Bulgarians, then against the NOF and communist fighters). Go ahead…tell them that they are not Greek…and this is where your compatriot activists in Greece and abroad fail Mr. Stoyanov. It is the same story over and over again with the same few disgruntled people publicly making noise. In the end, it is just noise without substance though.
Best regards to all for Christmas and the New Year.
Christos Karatzios

Goran Stojanov says:

KE,

Thank you for the PDF’s. I’ve never seen them before, and I’ll make sure they do get wider publicity (as far I can do). I would appreciate if we keep the skinheads on both sides out of this discussion. There are many other places where they can kick and scream.

So this study concludes that on a national level there are 0.6% / 0.9% (I could not figure out what is the difference between the two files) speakers of Macedonian in Greece. That is not terribly different from the Encyclopedia Britannica’s assessment of 1.8%. It may be in the margin of error (or margin of fear).

What I find interesting is that in the age distribution chart, even the age group 18-24 showed 0.6% of speakers, but the age group 55-64 showed 0%. Is this also in the margin of error, or in the margin of fear? Arvanitika, on the other hand, holds up quite strong: 6.4% on a national level, some 800 thousand people.

Now you said something like: If Greece decides to organize itself around the languages people speak. It is not about that at all. Greece, like all other countries in the world, is obligated to protect its linguistic minorities. To protect them it means: to provide media, education and cultural protection for these minority languages. Greece does not get to decide if it likes that or not. UN already sent an independent expert and she passed the verdict.

As for some participants on this comment list using the acronym for Republic of Macedonia, and the creators of this language use study are using the term “Slavomacedonian” for the Macedonian language, I would like to inform you that both of these are illegal. Here is how the name of our country is legally recognized by UN (the reference):

http://unterm.un.org/dgaacs/unterm.nsf/WebView/5DAA91633F2A4F8285256DC700440A6B?OpenDocument

You may easily notice that the acronym is nowhere to be seen, that the name of our language is: Macedonian, and the full temporary reference is: the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Note that the first two words are not capitalized. This is discussed in the Note section. So if you insist on creating an acronym (which I consider being rude) it will have to be something like YRM.

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

Mr Stojanov, for the twelfth time, the question is:

“Where did you first read about Mr Droutsas’ statement?”

Just type a proper answer and provide a link. That’s all.

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Goran Stojanov says:

Ms. Danilovich,

My answer is c).

KE,

The extraordinary census in Republic of Macedonia was conducted from Apr1-Apr15 1994, and the full set of data was published in 1997 (hence my previous reference). You can order the complete almanach here:

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/49418175

Since you cared enough to send me a youtube-lullaby, I feel oblidged to send you one too:

rel="nofollow">

KE says:

Yes -- I had not seen the first URL but my source from IOS (one of the premier anti-Greek voices of Greek journalism and among your best allies in the greek press) included 3 PDF files:
http://www.iospress.gr/ios2001/V-PRC-1.pdf
http://www.iospress.gr/ios2001/V-PRC-2.pdf
http://www.iospress.gr/ios2001/V-PRC-3.pdf
Not as comprehensive as I’d like, flawed in not allowing a plurality of linguistic answers (things had to add up to 100%) ignoring the heavy mixing that has gone on, but still the most recent and independent statistical study. BTW even the Dutch study we’ve both read did not include visiting every village -- for quite a few villages their information was based on word-of-mouth and their estimate for the total slavic speaking population in Macedonia was an extrapolated estimate (given their restricted footprint).

You have no excuse not to have seen it all these years -- IOS articles always find their way to your media -- just ask Slavko. I guess you were busy dreaming of walking in Solun as the catchy song about the Grci Katili says to notice. Or just maybe people did not like the numbers and decided to keep things hush-hush…

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

The question is not about your “interpretation”, Mr Stojanov and don’t think that you’re going to get away with this. You’ve been asked about your SOURCE. You’ve read about it SOMEWHERE. I’m not interested in what you think about it. I’m asking for a REFERENCE.

Let’s make it easier. You have three choices.

“I, Goran Stojanov, was first informed about Mr Droutsas’ statement after reading about it”

a) in the Bible
b) in the Qur’an
c) in none of the above

For the eleventh time: name your source and stop hiding.

Goran Stojanov says:

Are you talking about this Greek study:

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Info/DemographicsOfGreece.html

http://www.iospress.gr/ios2001/V-PRC-1.pdf

It is the first time I see it.

As for the extraordinary census, I will find you some info some other day. Today I’m busy.

KE says:

First off BT thank you so much for noticing that -- I’ve been hoping someone would reprint the book since the mid-90’s. At least now Mr. Milososki (if he ever gets back to his unfinished Ph.D.) can get his own copy instead of having to ask me for a copy I could not share with him. Not that it would do him any good -- he’d probably read it through a filter that only shows him what he wants to see.

Mr. Karatzios I never mentioned anything about (population) exchanges with Yugoslavia that would include the Greeks of Pelagonia. They left outside the framework of an exchange but they most assuredly left en masse and settled all over Greek Macedonia, both close to Bitola in Florina as well as far south as Katerini. Indeed the number 400 appears to be smaller than even the expected number of remaining non Slavomacedonian political refugees. But claims of hundreds of thousands (on either side) defy logic and until a better figure is available I’d rather go with the official figure rather than the self-serving figure of a minority activist or proponent. And indeed this is outside the scope of this thread and I wish Mrs. Gatzouli had not brought it into play.

Finally, Mr. Stojanov,

I have no reason to expect that people that do not accept the results of a secret ballot will accept the results of a census (where they have completely rejected the results of previous censuses since they did not fit their preconceived notions). So simply put I do not believe you. The V-PRC results have been out for quite a few years and none of your sorry lot have even considered them.

A person that shares your national consciousness has the perfect opportunity in a totally secret manner to express that by voting for Vinozhito (or a new, even more openly nationalist party that say Trajan Pasois could setup) in the Euroelections where the result of the elections does not affect his/her daily life and there is no concept of a “wasted” vote. This is a far far better (and secure) medium for expressing a non-Greek national identity than answering a census taker’s questions. You’d have us (and the world) believe that several hundred thousand (to a million) of your brothers and sisters are living under Greek oppression but only a few thousand vote for Vinozhito to show their existence and disapproval of Greek policies? It would take a population with the collective IQ of a squirrel to behave thus. So sorry Mr. Stojanov, the best neutral way to get an idea of the numbers of your co-nationals in Greece is for them to vote for their party/parties. They’ve been doing that for several elections now with dimishing “success”. ;->

Now if you are actually interested in those Greek citizens that share your cultural background but not your national ideology (ah those pesky Grkomans rear their “ugly” head again) then I’m afraid that their numbers is none of your business -- if the Greek state is interested in switching to a state organization based around linguistic groupings -- then it would make sense for it to asj for information such as mother tongue etc. in a census. That being said, sure, out of curiocity I’d like to know the numbers of active, passive or simply descended from speakers of the various languages and dialects of Greece. I would be even more interested in knowing how many of the Vinozhito voters are your conationals and how many are simply leftist sympathizers (about half of the votes for the party come from outside Macedonia). Please humour us by elaborating on how you would pose the relevant questions in Greek keeping in mind that ethnicity sounds like εθνικότητα which means nationality. 🙂

Regarding the nearing urban legend status Polish study of the quite interesting Nestorion dialects it’s supposed to have resulted in a Ph.D. thesis (at least) so far. You should be able to provide that at least instead of vague statements. I’d love for you to provide proof of the decriminalization of the public use of Slavic in Greece in 1996-1997 (a “fact” missed by countless reports on the subject so far) -- otherwise Ms. Danilovich will have to add this statement (and the 98% “pure” one) to her list of flat out lies you’ve provided us so far. Maybe someone pulled your leg by telling you that Metaxas was still in charge in 1996 and you took it to heart. ;-> And if indeed we are talking of 200-250k speakers in Greek Macedonia, then dopia (in all their varieties) are most certainly not threatened with extinction (unlike Tsakonian and Kappadocian, both Greek dialects mind you).

Regarding your anecdotal story of the extraordinary census of 1996-1997 I’d love to read something more specific about it than your vague anecdotes. I find a few things very strange about your story:
a) I was very actively following the issue at the time from both your news sources and ours and I do not remember mention of any such census -- if the monitors were mainly Greek there is no way it would not have made headlines on both sides.
b) Samaras has said quite a few silly things but (1) he was not Foreign Minister in 1993 (he was sacked in 1992) to have been able to prompt the European Union into anything and (2) to the best of my recollection never claimed 300k Greeks (Tsouderou had claimed 150k Greeks only but it appears that she was counting the Deca Begalci and NOF partisans by mistake in that figure).
c) No mention of this census appears in any analysis of the demographics of your country that I have ever seen anywhere (and I’ve seen a lot).
d) It’s about 1000 people more than the official numbers that your country provides to this day! If they counted the Greeks to be 1400 why claim there’s a little more than 400?
So -- I’m eagerly waiting for you to prove that you are capable of furnishing us with some actual facts instead of more wild stories… It would be a welcome change and out of so many things that you’ve said so far it would be the 2nd actually new item of information I will have heard (the first one being that the Nestorion study was Polish).

As for your liking Grci Katili I did not expect any better of you -- I suggest you use it as background to your sleep at night, it should provide enhancement to the sensation of your wet Solun-skata dreams.

Goran Stojanov says:

Ms. Danilovich,

I am not ignoring you. I answered you question the very first time. It is not any source, it is ME. I understand his statement like that. When I read it, that is what I see in his statement. And I read it from the very link that you posted (translated by Google, few posts up).

And even your interpretation/translation “The Macedonian identity is part of every Greek’s identity.”, as far as I am concerned, can quite easily be interpreted as: “All Greeks are Macedonians.”

Goran Stojanov says:

Mr. Karatzios,

The laws are cited correctly. But I don’t understand how can any of these laws prevent me from “questioning my background” as you say.

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

Mr Stojanov, it’s not polite to ignore other people in a discussion. Of course, Mr Danforth (your academic supporter) and Mr Mitreski (your organization’s vice-president) did so, but third time is not the charm in this case. Unless, of course, this is something that you’ve been told by other UMD members: avoid straight answers at all costs, when you’ve been caught red-handed.

For the tenth time:

Why do you seem so timid regarding your first point of contact with Droutsas’ statement? Is it secret? Are you afraid of something? Are you ashamed of it? Just give us a link. […] Say “I read it there and here’s the link”. It’s really that simple.

If I was one of your compatriots, I would be furious about your stance. Pretending that other people don’t exist is childish and does not serve any valid cause.

Christos Karatzios says:

Mr. Stoyanov,

Please look at Articles 178 and 179 of your country’s Criminal and Penal Code. I believe that these are correct but please correct me if I am wrong:

Article 178. “A person, who with the intention to ridicule shall publicly make a mockery of the Republic of Macedonia, its flag, arm or anthem, shall be punished with imprisonment of three months to three years.”

Article 179. “A person, who with the intention to ridicule shall publicly make a mockery of the Macedonian people and the nationalities, shall be punished with imprisonment of three months to three years.”

These can and have been interpreted quite liberally by your country’s authorities and especially the nationalists of the VMRO.

As for Britannica and printing rubbish:
I should inform you that I have many editions of this encyclopaedia. In the 1984 Macropaedia version if one were to read ‘Yugoslavia’ and ‘People’s Republic of Macedonia’ one is clearly told that this republic of Yugoslavia spans the largest area of the geographical region of Macedonia. This is not true. How could Britannica print this you say? Well as I wrote before, go to the original and see who provided this information. It was all provided by the Yugoslav state and what was MANU back then. So again I ask you (since you asked Ms. Gatzoulis) how could a reputable encyclopedia print garbage?
As for their statistics, I think the above posts have answered your questions. I have all of the versions of the Britannica in the 1980s and I find it very curious that from one year to the next, the number of ‘Macedonians’ changes by the tens of thousands (increasing by 10 000 in a few years)! Just who is providing this information to Britannica? They don’t even know. Curious isn’t it?
I would also like it very much if you can provide us the names of the ‘minority researchers’ that went from ‘village to village’ as you claim and took a census. Who were they funded by? Why didn’t they come to my family in Northwestern Macedonia, Greece and count them too? Obviously the 200 000 number doesn’t represent them. Maybe the researchers were afraid they would get punched in the nose by them if they implied they were not Greek perhaps? Curious isn’t it?
Greece is not Africa Mr. Stoyanov. Even my friend’s grandmother has internet, cable TV, and a cell phone. So how could they don’t know about Vinozhito?
Please don’t patronize us Mr. Stoyanov. You are not dealing with uneducated internet teenagers here.

To KE,
I don’t believe that there were any exchanges of Greeks from Pelagonia into Greece. I may be wrong. The number of Greeks in FYROM is to my knowledge unknown but surely more than 400 as is officially reported. In any case, we are not talking about them in this thread. I thank you for the information you provide.

Christos Karatzios

Goran Stojanov says:

KE,

The only way how Hellenic Republic can clarify the issue of the number of ethnic Macedonians is to actually do a census. If done properly, no one can refute it. (You won’t, of course need census takers from Skopje and policemen from Bitola, I’m sure you have enough well trained policemen in Greece, we see them every night on the TV, but international monitoring is not a bad idea, having in mind how politicized the issue was and still is).

The Dutch study you mention is exactly the one I was referring to. The polish study is not yet published (although it is a long term project and it covers the bordering areas, where Macedonian speakers are in minority, so that’s why they didn’t go to the area north of Kostur, but rather to the area south of it). Now keep in mind the use of the Macedonian language was only recently decriminalized (I think from 1997 or so) in an informal context. (In formal context, Macedonian language is still not recognized in Greece). But even this small step helps to emancipate and preserve the Macedonian dialects that are native (ntopia as Ms. Danilovich said) to the greek portion of Macedonia. And that has been noticed by the researchers.

Ms. Gatzoulis,

KE gave you an acceptable answer regarding the Greek minority in R. Macedonia. But I want to add few anecdotal details. In 1993 Mr. Samaras claimed not 100 thousand, but full 300 thousand Greeks living under oppression in R. Macedonia. This, of course, is a serious issue, and EU officials took him seriously (:-)), so they sent an envoy to R. Macedonia and requested an extraordinary census. Being peace loving and meek people (as you yourself said) we Macedonians accepted this with one condition: if the number of Greeks is even remotely close to the number cited by Mr. Samaras, we’ll pay for the census, if not EU (read Greece) will pay for it. And we did, I don’t quite remember was it 1996 or 1997 but we had an extraordinary census with international (mostly Greek) monitors, and they found around 1400 Greeks. The cost of the census was around 6 mil dollars, just a small dent in the 300 bilion euros.

The number of Aromunians (Vlahs) is 9695 (census 2002) and I agree with KE that the real number is about 2-3 times higher. Many people of Vlah ancestry opted to simply become Macedonians. The government is striving to preserve their language and culture. They have TV news, radio news in Aroumanian language, they have school classes, books and periodicals printed in their language, several cultural associations, church services… But not all Vlahs are in the Bitola region, a significant Vlah community exists around Stip and Sveti Nikole, and also around Gevgelija.

Some more info on the demographic structure of the Republic of Macedonia (note the 3713 Egyptians, they claim that they were brought to Macedonia from Egypt by the army of Alexander, hence the name Egyptians, Egjupci in Macedonian, elsewhere also known as Gypsies):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia

PS,

KE, my blood pressure is just right today, so I decided not to attempt to translate the lyrics of your gift-song. The last link, though: I admit, I did click on it. 🙂

KE says:

Mrs. Gatzouli it would be extremely helpful (at the very least) for PanMacedonian officials to avoid resorting to the same logical fallacies that the Stojanov’s of this world love to engage in. I know of no democracy, however flawed, where 5% or even 2% of the population can remain “hidden”. Even in a Turkey where Kurdish repression took the form of armed suppression and the Kurds could not remain “hidden”. Whether we are discussing Greeks in FYRoM or Mr. Stojanov’s co-nationals (as in members of the same nation) in Greece, arguments of huge hidden numbers defy logic.

So what happened to the Greeks of Pelagonia etc.? Just so that Mr. Stojanov does not start diverting the conversation to issues of mother tongue, by Greeks of Pelagonia I mean those inhabitants of the area pre-1912 that identified with the Greek nation, whether their mother tongue was Greek, Aromanian (most of the cases in Bitola), MeglenoRomanian, NorthWestern Arvanitika (Prespes region) or Slavic (Strumica and partially Gevgelija). And in certain of these places one could also see a noticeable, even if smaller, pro-Romanian component among the Vlach-speaking population. As Mrs. Gatzouli knows very well a great many of the Greeks left with the Balkan wars (and in the aftermath of their conclusion) for Greece or abroad -- their associations are all over the place. Others, like Sempsis that Mr. Stojanov decided to mention, waited things a bit and left later, after WWI etc. Hell, even some of the Jews of Bitola left for Thessaloniki. Of the ones that remained, it comes as no surprise that they had to adapt seeing that the Greek Government was not willing to risk Greek-Serbian relations to protect them (unlike the Greek-Albanian tension over the Greeks in Albania). After WWII adapting meant either joining the majority and claiming to be a “Macedonian” or in the case of Vlachs choosing the less feared and hated (compared to the Greek one) pro-Romanian (or fully Romanian) national identity. In fact if we are to believe the proclamations of the leadership of the Vlach “nationality” (as defined in the FYRoM constitution) in the country, their true numbers are an order of a magnitude higher than the official ~8k but most Vlachs declare themselves as Macedonians plain and simple. Their children and grandchildren etc., having grown up in a country where they get taught otherwise and a family environment where the Greek nation has had to be rejected, cannot but be anything but a Greek anymore. Their relatives in Greece can hope all they want that the ones that stayed behind maintained their national identity but that is too unlikely to be true as a rule.

That being said, the slightly above 400 number officially given does sound a bit low (but not 3 orders of magnitude too low) based on various independent evidence I’ve seen -- Mr. Stojanov mentioned a number larger by about 1000 dollars which I’d love to see. Again, with the caveat that the source is non-third party, according to this interview:
http://www.ergasia-press.gr/interview/view_article.php?new_id=3005
the greek association PELAGONIA in Bitola has 645 families registered in its roster, 400 (I assume paid) members of which 60 are actively engaged. I would not be surprised if at the census level a lot of these families chose to represent themselves as anything but Greek -- being a small community gives you no power -- all the advantages go to the mega-minorities like the Albanians.

The Kiro Gligorov 100k quote frankly does not make much sense -- there is no census data supporting such a claim and Gligorov had no gain from adopting it. I’ve seen the very obscure interview and wonder whether something was lost in translation. Maybe Gligorov was counting all people that were related to Greece (thus including the infamoys Egejci that left with the civil war).

Vinozhito has has 15+ years of spreading the message during which its electoral base has not only failed to increase but actually decreased! You’d better find a more convincing explanation Mr. Stojanov.

As to the matter of how to interpret the Vinozhito votes even Mr. Dimitras, one of your foremost propagandists (on our side of the border) and recent honoree of UMD (your organization), uses it as a tool to estimate the numbers of people possessing the same national identity as yourself in Greece.

As for the Soteriades map it’s an interesting development historically -- it represents Greece’s implicit acceptance of the Cvijic Macedo-Slav framework which had become so popular in Europe that one had to adapt one’s map making to Cvijic just to be taken seriously. (I fully suggest the excellent Wilkinson book on the ethnographic maps of Macedonia that should be an eye opener to all involved parties).

KE says:

Mr. Stojanov -- if Greece has not had questions on mother and/or commonly used language in the census since 1951 I really cannot fathom how (as you suggest) it has statistical and sociological data of that nature. Moreover I challenge you to find an official statement with the words 98% “pure” -- otherwise you have proven yourself to be once again a shameless liar. Greece does officially recognize only the minorities prescribed in international agreements (which after WWII is only the Turkic/Pomak/Gypsy Muslim minority of Thrace. In that sense about 98% of the Greek citizens living in Greece are not considered to be a minority -- although for some of them (Armenians and Jews for example) there is official recognition as “communities” by the state.

As for Ethnologue its number keeping is notoriously “suspect” -- over the years has been giving numbers without proper or with phony attribution:

v14 used the only official data dating back to 1951 but for other languages comes up with wild estimates all over the map:
http://guinea-bissau.cc/14/show_country.asp?name=Greece

v15 came up with an imaginary census figure (that the anti-Greek zealots on Wikipedia insisting on adopting even after it was pointed out to them no such census ever took place) and an exact number of 180,180 (yep down to a 10 person accuracy)!
http://www.ethnologue.com/15/show_country.asp?name=GR

This number has been picked up (along with all sorts of other inaccuracies by a number of other sources, eg. http://www.peoplegroups.org/MapSearch.aspx?country=Greece

Finally the latest version (with an attribution to Boskov 2007) comes up with an estimate of 250k.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=GR

So poor me I try and find out who this Boskov guy is -- after having them quote a non-existent census for v15 I do not trust them not to simply pick up a number from one of your sources. Thus I look into their bibliography:
http://www.ethnologue.com/author_index.asp?letter=B

Ooops -- no Boskov! What happened? Maybe they meant to say Voskov -- if the guy is Greek they may have mistaken the V for a B since it is written with a B in Greek:
http://www.ethnologue.com/author_index.asp?letter=V

Still nothing! Maybe they meant Moskov -- which after all was the name of an intellectual, historian and ex-mayor of Thessaloniki (Oh my Goodness -- a Greek with a Slavic surname made it to be mayor -- what has the world come to Mr. Stoyanov!)
http://www.ethnologue.com/author_index.asp?letter=M

Nothing! Oh my -- who is this mysterious Boskov? Let’s look at the bibliography for Greece:
http://guinea-bissau.cc/country_index_bibl.asp

Ooops -- they forgot to put it in!

Well let’s check the main bibliography:
http://www.ethnologue.com/ethno_docs/bibliography.asp

Ooops -- again no Boskov, Moskov or Voskov! It appears that Ethnologue is using a source out of thin air! How scholarly!

In fact Ethnologue is rife with inaccuracies of a suspect nature: Up to v14 it spoke of Arvanitika (and a NorthWestern version of them in Epirus). In versions 15 and 16 it discovered 10k of Tosk Albanian speakers in Epirus (but the NorthWestern version of Arvanitika is still in the text despite the fact that Arvanitika is not listed as being spoken in Epirus any more). The Thracian Arvanitika still is listed with Arvanitika despite it being linguistically closer to the Epirotan variety. Finally the region of Lehovo in Epirus is listed as the region where these 10k speakers exist -- however the village of Lehovo is in Western Macedonia; it is indeed inhabited by a population of Albanian speaking ancestry but it is not of the size of a city… That such gross errors would appear alongside the resurgence of a Cham issue promoted by Albanian nationalists and aided by your activists in Greece should come as no surprise to anyone looking at the wild guesses that Ethnologue has adopted for Greek linguistic groups. Then again things could be worse -- Eurominority for example is even more blatantly agenda driven.

Wikipedia cites 12 sources for a wide spread language estimate. Some of the sources are your own side’s propagandists (Shea/Bacid/Dimitras). Dr. Danforth is cited twice but his numbers are much lower than yours. The linguistic sources all seem to get their numbers from Ethnologue…

Britannica can choose whatever source it deems authoritative but it needs to be open about it -- similarly appeals to the work of researchers that do not publish their research (but we have to take your word for it) are rather humorous. So please do provide us with citations about the Polish, Dutch and USA anthropologists and their estimates. I can provide you with estimates from “Greek” sources that you would like (well, somewhat at least). I have read a Dutch study (Dr. Danforth’s collaborator from the University of Volos, back then working in Brussels conducted one with a colleague of hers in the Florina and Aridhea regions) that was limited in regional scope. And there is the Euromosaic summary of a study though it is so thin on detail that I cannot know how much trust to put in it. I’m also aware of an activist (who has no problem reproducing easily disprovable propaganda) German researcher who did some wider studies on the ground -- the Greek state (thanking him for his anti-Greek stance) was recently considering him for a professorship at the University of Athens, following in the proud footsteps of Dr. Boeschoten and Dr. Aarbakke.

The only recent serious information we have on other language use in Greece is a V-PRC anonymous statistical sample all over Greece, back in the beginning of this decade. The questions were “what other language/dialect you speak -- aside from Greek -- excluding foreign languages learnt at school etc.”, “what other language/dialect you understand but cannot speak” and “what other language/dialect your ancestors used” again excluding foreign languages taught at school etc. Unfortunately the study was flawed (it did not allow for multiple answers so children of mixed marriages between a Vlach and an Arvanite had to choose for the 3rd question one of the two parents) but it is the best estimate we have. I’m afraid that the numbers are very far from your hopes Mr. Stojanov or those of the scapegoated Mr. Zvezdakoski who conjures up at least 800k of “unredeemed brothers and sisters”. Greece is not the only Western country not recording this type of information in a census -- but frankly if I believed it would shut you people up I’d say go ahead and reintroduce the question in the census. The problem is that just as you did not believe the data up until 1951 you will refuse to believe any data that does not conform to your preconceived notions today or in the future. In fact, even if the census was conducted by census takers from the University in Skopje accompanied by policemen from Bitola (the only way you would not be able to blame the “evil Greeks” for influencing the census takers is such a science-fiction scenario) I’m sure the cries of predavnik-predavnik would be directed at the people compiling the census results back at the University.

That being said it would not surprise me (or bother me in any way) if 250k citizens of Greece had some ability to speak or understand the Slavic dialects of Macedonia (and yes, language information of that sort would count a kid of a mixed marriage who is conversant in the language as a speaker). The extent of the maps shown corresponds roughly to at least the Western half of the pre-Balkan war Bulgarian maps so again I can see where they come from. But all I care about is the national consciousness of these citizens and language is most certainly not the deciding factor in that -- the villagers of Kratero (Rakovo in the old days) are the best proof of that. But in your messed up brain, it is indeed descend that makes for national consciousness (hence people need to be “awakened”); I guess that allows you to enjoy your nights with the obligatory wet dreams of a “liberated Solun”… ;->

Finally as a Christmas gift in honour of your persistence to present us with yet another lie or half-truth every time you are proven wrong, I dedicate to you one of my favourite songs:
rel="nofollow">

If curious ask one of your Greek speaking buddies at maknews to translate it -- Google does an even worse job at it than it does with Droutsas’ statement.
http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?info=Lyrics&act=details&song_id=8495

Admittedly it’s no “Grci Katili” so I doubt it will generate the enthusiasm the latter one generated among your buddies not too long ago:
http://www.videa.vsetkyvidea.sk/video/xRfGZr2J5fM/orce-stevkovski-grci-katili-FUCK-GREECE.html

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

UCLA’s page is laughable. For example:

Numbers of speakers are not available for Bulgaria or Albania because of those countries’ language policies.

But the same person (Friedman), accuses Greece for the same “policies”! This is self-contradictory; not to mention that he couldn’t count them all by himself in 1985.

dialects […] of northern Greece (Aegean Macedonian)

The numerous slavic dialects of the region, exist for centuries. Slavic-speaking Greeks call it “ntopia” (from greek en+topos=entopia, indigenous). The modern “standard Macedonian” language, is a very recent development.

As for the map you refer to, it’s yet another case of distortion. There were Macedonian Slavs (Slavs living in the region of Macedonia) and Slavs not living in Macedonia (for example, Serbs).

Why do you seem so timid regarding your first point of contact with Droutsas’ statement? Is it secret? Are you afraid of something? Are you ashamed of it? Just give us a link. You’ve been asked eight times and you always avoid giving a straight answer (granted, you’re not the only one; Mr Danforth and Mr Mitreski had their fair shares too). Say “I read it there and here’s the link”. It’s really that simple.

Nina Gatzoulis says:

If Encyclopedia Britannica, or any academic is unable to provide where they received their information, if there are no authenticated sources, anyone can call it as he/she sees it…

Mr. Stoyanov said: “On this map Macedonians (or “Macedonian Slavs” as he names them) were dominant in many areas in the Greek and Bulgarian portion of Macedonia”.

Let’s talk now about the Greek minority in FYROM. Greeks dominantly populated Bitola, Gevgelija, Krushevo etc. Kiro Gligorov in a Serbian newspaper announced that he believes that there are 100.000 Greeks in FYROM now. The official number of Greeks according to FYROM government is about 400 individuals. Who is not providing the truth Mr. Stoyanov?

Mr. Stoyanov said: “Maybe they have been unsuccessful in reaching them…”
Are you kidding? With all the zeal that Vinozhito is working towards the so-called recognition of the ethnic “Macedonians” in Greece?

The truth Mr. Stoyanov is that the people who happened to speak the idiom of the FYROM/Greek borders are peace loving people who feel 100% Greeks and they enjoy all the rights that all Greek citizens enjoy. Most importantly however is the fact that they want to be left alone from the Vinozhito machinations…Believe me, I know; my origins are from northwestern Macedonia.

Nina Gatzoulis

Goran Stojanov says:

And here is an ethnological map by Georgios Sotiriades, of the University of Athens:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d6/Hellenism_in_the_Near_East_1918.jpg

On this map Macedonians (or “Macedonian Slavs” as he names them) were dominant in many areas in the Greek and Bulgarian portion of Macedonia. (He left the Serbian portion white, probably because he lacked sufficient data).

Goran Stojanov says:

Ms. Gatzoulis,

I am surprised by your statement that Encyclopedia Britannica publishes garbage. It is true that the government of Hellenic Republic refuses to publish data on the ethnic composition of the county, but there are independent researchers that have studied this subject village by village, and house by house. And their estimates range from 200 -250 thousand active speakers of the Macedonian language. I happen to know a polish researcher that covered the southern area of Kostur (Greek Kastoria), travelling village to village, and filling questionnaires. This was a complementary work to the previous work by Dutch and American anthropologists that traveled the area of Lerin, Voden, northern Kostur, lower Vardar, Solun vicinity, Seres and Drama. They counted 363 villages where Macedonian is still well understood and spoken in various capacities and levels of proficiency. The Dutch scientists published their results. I will try to find you a reference.

Here is one additional source UCLA:

http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/Profile.aspx?LangID=42&menu=004

And in Wikipedia’s article there are many sources that indicate these numbers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic-speakers_of_Greek_Macedonia

As to why only 4500 or so Macedonians in Greece voted for Vinozito, (Greek: Ouranio Toxo), political party that claims to represent them, that is a very good question. Maybe they have been unsuccessful in reaching them (I know that much of their propaganda material was seized prior to the previous elections, plus their access to media was severely restricted).

But the number of voters for a certain political party is not a census. If Hellenic Republic wants the truth to be known about the ethnic composition of its citizens, they should conduct a fair census, and publish the data.

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

Mr Stojanov, it seems inappropriate to cop out.

You wrote:

I was rather amused by the recent statement of Mr. Drucas who basically said something like: All Greeks are Macedonians.

For the seventh time: where did you first read about that statement?

Give us a link. It’s that simple.

As for minorities and identities, I wonder why the Serbian activist Vasko Gligorijevic seems to have disappeared again. He has no online activity for more than a month now and the last couple of times that happened, he was detained in Bardovci.

Nina Gatzoulis says:

Mr. Stoyanov,

The Pan-Macedonian Association a few years ago (2006) came in contact with former Executive Editor of Encyclopedia Britannica, Ms Anita Wolff, regarding the demographics of Greece, and in this particular case, the issue of minorities in Greece.

She informed us that they took this info, God knows when from a “Christian” encyclopedia based in Georgia, USA, but when we asked to provide us with more specific information they pointed to another encyclopedia based in the…United Kingdom. It seems that someone in the 1970’s wrote garbage and this garbage is circulating. In fact it is doubtful if anyone knows who started this misinformation and Britannica keeps repeating the same every year, which makes no sense, since populations keep changing. It is shameful that Encyclopedia Britannica uses unauthenticated sources of dubious status whose agenda is questionable.

The following information is provided by the State Department. There is no reference to a “Macedonian” minority:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3395.htm#people

People
Population (2005 est.): 11,104,000 million. (Immigrants make up approximately 10% of the population.)
Growth rate (2007 estimated): 0.163%.
Languages: Greek 99% (official); Turkish, others. Albanian is spoken by approximately 700,000 Albanian immigrants. English is the predominant second language.
Religions: Greek Orthodox (approximately 98% of citizens), with Muslim (1.3%), Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, and other religious communities.

Think about it, if there are 200.000 “Macedonians” why didn’t they support Ouranio Toxo in the last Euro-elections and it only received 4.500 votes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2009_(Greece)#Participating_parties -- and please don’t give the regurgitated, standard FYROMian answer that this population is terrorized by Greek authorities, because nothing can be further than that.

Nina Gatzoulis

Goran Stojanov says:

Ms. Danilovich,

I thought I am clear: I understand Mr. Droutsas’ statement as such.

As for Encyclopedia Britannica’s sources, I don’t know. The best qualified to know its ethnic composition is the government of the Hellenic Republic. And maybe Encyclopedia Britannica has sources from within the Greek government. Alternatively they may use data from the Polish, Dutch and USA anthropologists that have studied this issue in the last 18 years (at least these are the ones I am aware of).

Mr. Karatzios,

No Penal Code in the Republic of Macedonia forbids anyone to question/examine his/her background. That is a myth perpetuated by the Bulgarians (mostly). If there was one, how would you explain that in R. Macedonia there are so many ethnic minorities (around 25), including Bugarian, Serbian and Greek. While Serbian minority is significant in numbers (around 40 thousand, primarily due to colonization in the interwar period), both the Greek and the Bulgarian minority are around 1400 people each.

There used to be a law against “Causing Ethnic Tensions and Hatred”. According to this law if one person curses, but uses one’s ethnicity as part of the curse, then that was considered as a much more serious crime then just an insult. This law is not in effect any more.

The fact that we speak Slavonic language does not make us Slavs. To be precise, such ethnicity does not even exist. Language is a very uncertain marker of one’s ethnicity, we have seen this not only on the example of Macedonians in Greece (most of which at present do not speak Macedonian as their first language, and that change happened in the last 60-80 years), but also on the example of many other nations that needed to adopt another languages like: Scotts (who adopted English), Irish, Welsh, Bretons, …

Christos Karatzios says:

Mr. Stoyanov,
I was not going to answer anything on this thread anymore but I can’t let your last few comments go unanswered. You are very wrong on many of your statements.
The situation between FYROM and Greece is not the same as Mongolia and China and I would ask that you please stop playing with words to make your points.
Mr. Droutsas’s statement was clear and not plural in its meaning. However, if you want to find a different meaning then you will. The same could be said if he had said “Hello”. If you want to find a different meaning to “hello” then you can philosophize anything. To the rest of us, the statement is clear: The Macedonian identity is part of the Greek identity. Period. Moreover, just so you want start playing with words again, he meant the Macedonian identity in the Greek sense of the word (not the Slavonic). What you are not being honest about is the fact that this Greek identity in Macedonia was there before the Slavonic was formed in the last 100 years. Thus Macedonian history has been part of Greek history for centuries. You can dispute this all you want with quotes from Stefov, Gandeto, Donski, and Rossos, but ultimately this is an argument you can’t win. Everywhere you dig in Macedonia, you find artifacts with Greek writing that have been there throughout the centuries.
This is where your analogy with Mongolia is wrong. Mongolians were there before the Chinese or at least at the same time and the two were distinct from early on. Conversely, the Greeks were in Macedonia long before the Bulgarians and Slavs migrated South. Up until about 100 years ago, Macedonian was a geographic term and mostly reserved to describe Greeks living in Macedonia. In antiquity, the Macedonians were a Greek tribe. I truly regret the answers you will provide for this last statement of mine.
As for Britannica and Ethnologue, scratch the surface and you will see that the 200 000 number is from “unofficial sources” like NGOs and prosyletizing American religious groups that don’t adhere to the strictest rules of political neutrality.
What I am trying to say Mr. Stoyanov is this: Search for your roots and look at ORIGINAL sources for everything you claim. Go back to youre ORIGIN before you claim something that has been part of someone else before you. This of course is a problem since your country’s Penal Code forbids you to question your background unless of course it is “antic”.
Thank you,
Christos Karatzios

Goran Stojanov says:

Ms. Danilovich,

From the source you provided, and the Google translation, it is obvious that Mr. Droutsas said: “the makedoniki identity is part of the identity of each Greek.” I think that this may mean one of the following two things:

1. Ever Greek has Macedonian identity.
2. Or, at least, the Greek identity is multifaceted, and the Macedonian component is included in each Greek’s identity.

The problem with general statements like this is that they can be interpreted in different ways. That’s why politicians like them.

Would it make sense for you if the Chinese president declared that: “Mongolia is China”, or “The Mongolian identity is part of the identity of each Chinese.” Before you quickly respond, oh that is different, think about it:

-- Mongolia and China are two different countries, much like R. Macedonia and Greece are
-- Much of the wider region of Mongolia is now part of China (the Chinese province of Inner Mongolia), same as much of the region of Macedonia is now in Greece.
-- Mongolians are a distinct nation, with distinct language, culture, history… but they also live as an ethnic minority in China, much like Macedonians are a distinct nation, with distinct language, culture, history… but they also live as an ethnic minority in Greece.
-- Mongolians conquered China and governed it for a long time, much like Macedonians did in the past… The opposite happened only recently.

If the world accepts the logic of your government, Chinese will have a full right to force Mongolians to change the name of their country into Northern Mongolia, and rebrand themselves as Northmongolians.

As for the sources that Britannica uses, I don’t know. You would have to ask them. I know that Greece does not publish statistical and sociological data of that nature (which does not mean that it doesn’t have it). Actually Greece still claims that it is 98% “pure”.

My guess is that they used the data from the Ethnologue:

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=mkd

According to their estimate the number of Macedonians in Greece is 250 000. I don’t know if they counted the mixed marriages, but they surely didn’t counted the Pontians, since they are presented separately on this map:

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_map.asp?name=GR&seq=10

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

Mr Stojanov, last week you wrote:

I was rather amused by the recent statement of Mr. Drucas who basically said something like: All Greeks are Macedonians.

For the sixth time: can you tell us what was your source?

Regarding Britannica’s data, well, they don’t come out of thin air, do they?

This is an encyclopedia, not a sensationalist, government-manipulated rag, right?

There must be a source, but your Ethnologue hypothesis is wrong. I don’t know who Boskov is (do you?) and how he gave an estimation of 250,000 in 2007. But surely, Britannica didn’t use his data, as their estimation is 202,302. That’s about 20% less. One can’t evaporate 47,698 people in two years -- unless if his first name is Adolf, in which case it would be much quicker.

Therefore the question remains: who gives these numbers?

Does UMD know?

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

Mr Stojanov:

a) for the fifth time (!), what was the source of your original statement “All Greeks are Macedonians”, in reference to Mr Droutsas’ interview?

b) Apparently, TIME’s Almanac uses Britannica as a source. But do you or any of your compatriots (maybe Mr Mitreski?) know Britannica’s sources? I couldn’t find them anywhere and surely, they must exist.

Goran Stojanov says:

KE,

While we were wondering about the number of Macedonians in Greece, TIME Magazine provided the answer for us: Macedonians are 1.8% of the Greek population of 11.2 mil, which amounts to around 200 000.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/2009/11/26/macedonians-in-greece-according-to-the-time-almanac-2010/

KE says:

Mr. Stojanov the kids of mixed descend I know in Greece have not chosen between their parent’s identities but cherish both. And the majority of people of refugee origin in Greece today have at least one local ancestor -- despite the horror such mixing with the madjiri instills in your collective hearts.

Mr. Damianopoulos can be Mother Teresa when it comes to your lot for all I care but he’s a kook none-the-less -- I’ve been reading his gems for years to be able to form my own opinion. And his disgraceful attack on Dr. Karakasidou shows how much nationalism has poisoned his thinking -- the very fact that you choose to defend him shows once again what the real Stojanov behind the civilized facade is.

Finally I did not “say” “disease of Hellenism”. I reported a phrase verbatim from your host at maknews. If you disagree pick it up with him (something you have of course never done -- it probably rung as nicely to your ears as the incoherent shouts of kozi-predavnik etc. that the chorus erupts on a daily basis). Of course Hellenism has as much a relation with superiority as the French National identity does. That is some of its adherents became extremists believing in notions of superiority (with nasty results). We could have a serious conversation about how the development of modern Hellenism and in particular the struggle between its Romaic and Ancient Greek components resulted in their current fusion (and of all the intended and unintended effects that had). But that would assume you actually educate yourself on the subject beyond your Google Scholar’s highlighted phrases out of Herzfeld’s book.

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

Mr Stojanov:

Even your translation

This is not my translation. It’s the only translation in the english language and there is no question about it.

Mr. Droutsas’ statement: “The Macedonian identity is part of every Greek’s identity.” makes as much sense as it makes the slogan: “Macedonia is Greece” or “Mongolia is China”.

It makes perfect sense.

The Greek identity, consists of many cultural identities. Those living in the mountains, cannot be expected to behave like islanders. They have their own traits, sustained through their historical evolution, but they identify as Greeks and remain a part of the Greek nation.

As for “Macedonia is Greece”, it made sense thousands of years ago and it still makes sense now. Strabo wrote (fragment 9) “indeed, Macedonia is (part of, implied in the original) Greece”.

Your explanation, though, (Greek-Macedonians being a cultural subgroup of the modern Greek nation) makes sense, or at least that is how you see yourself. But that is not what Mr. Droutsas said.

This is exactly what Mr Droutsas said. And may I remind you that it’s the fourth comment not revealing the source of your original statement “All Greeks are Macedonians”?

Goran Stojanov says:

Ms. Danilovich,

Even your translation of Mr. Droutsas’ statement: “The Macedonian identity is part of every Greek’s identity.” makes as much sense as it makes the slogan: “Macedonia is Greece” or “Mongolia is China”.

Your explanation, though, (Greek-Macedonians being a cultural subgroup of the modern Greek nation) makes sense, or at least that is how you see yourself. But that is not what Mr. Droutsas said.

KE,

If refugees from Asia Minor feel Macedonians or not is up to them to decide. As far as I know they clearly remember (since it was not that long ago) who they are and where did they come from. As for the mixed marriages, most kids usually chose the identity of one of the parents. So statistically, we are still at around 50%.

As for the people that you mention and name them “kooks” (I needed to consult dictionary.com and it gave me the following translation: an eccentric, strange, or foolish person), I beg to strongly disagree with you. Mr. Damianopoulos is probably the most well educated Macedonian of the 20th century, and very accomplished in his profession, plus a very dear and nice man.

As for the riddle as why do you feel so emotional about this issue: I could not solve it. Too little clues. For me, at least.

You said: “disease of Hellenism”. The modern Hellenism is not a disease; it is rather a philosophy of superiority (akin to the ones defeated in 1945). It claims that the Hellenic nations and their cultural heritage is superior to anything that existed in southern Balkans (or, it its more extreme form, in the entire Universe) prior to or afterwards. That claim is used to justify the destruction of any other native culture, language, monument, anything at all that is not Hellenic or Hellenic like. The destruction was not limited only to non-Greek cultures (Macedonians, Vlachs, Albanians, …) but to Byzantine and Ottoman Greek culture too. How many Byzantine churches were destroyed by Otto so he can build his “Hellenic Athens”? What was katharevousa if not an attempt to destroy the spoken Greek language, and replace it with the Classical Hellenic?

KE says:

Mr. Stojanov I have to hand it to you -- you are good enough to stuff enough pieces of misinformation in a few phrases to make Slavko proud. 😉 Leaving aside what Mr. Droutsas actually said, what it meant and what your media are playing it to be (this may end up being another case of a slogan with good intentions -- like the weird-sounding “Macedonia is Greece” -- gone awry) let’s try and dissect your statements:

when about half of them clearly define themselves as Pontians (and various other Asia Minor ethnicities), others as Vlachs, Albanians, Pomaks, Gipsies, etc…

Most assuredly a fair amount of the current inhabitants of Macedonia in Greece self-define themselves by origin/culture as Pontians, Mikrasiates, a few as Kappadocians etc., quite a few as East Thracians. Of course these are not ethnicities, however much you’d like to portray them as such. Then again with the right redefinition we could have about 15 or so different ethnicities based on the dress, dance and dialect differences among mainland Greeks anyway, but I will leave that deconstructing task to your buddy Dr. Danforth. And of course there are Gypsies in Macedonia (just like everywhere in Greece) and quite a few Vlachs. Pomaks? Sorry -- all Pomaks -- you have a different name for them -- of Macedonia were included in the population exchange so you won’t find them. You’ll also be very hard-pressed to find Greek citizens that self-define as Albanians -- I take it you do not refer to migrant workers from Albania but to Arvanites (whom UMD has opted to attempt to speak on behalf of without asking them). You will not find that many Arvanites in Macedonia but next time you find yourself in Greece go visit Lehovo in the Kastoria region and ask them if they are Albanians. I suggest you portray yourself as an American or something more neutral because the village has a bloody history when it comes to kommitatzis. More importantly however I have to comment on your “about half of them clearly define themselves”: How do you know that? The Christian population of Macedonia was indeed doubled with the influx of the refugees but while not too much intermarriage happened with the refugee generation itself, intermarriage of locals and refugees became very common in the subsequent generations. Among my generation of Greeks I’ve met countless people with one or more grandparents that were refugees -- I’ve met only 2 that were of purely refugee origin. So how do you know that all these mixed descent Greeks do not identify themselves as Macedonians as well as refugees -- did you count them to establish that >50% are “pure” refugees? Or does their mixed descent preclude them from claiming to be Macedonians as well? I’m sure there are several of your compatriots in the Diaspora that would be very upset to use such a logic… ;->

As for the money paid to journalists those of us with memory know it did not all go to writing about the Macedonian issue -- and most certainly it did not go towards “manufacturing”any issue -- as the sources from Yugoslav times including the founding congress of VMRO-DPMNE showed your nation’s irredentism was there before the onset of the name issue.

I’m glad you liked the part about Alex the Great discovering America which I added for some comic relief -- from my part it’s good to see that your kooks can rival our best kooks. What’s even more enjoyable though is to see your organization (the warm and fuzzy UMD) giving a forum to such kooks (Dr. Danforth’s co-panelists Damianopoulos, Dimitri and Pliakes) or having an arch-kook like Aleksandar Donski (the man who spoke to the ghost of Alexander the Great) provide an article for the latest issue of UMD’s Voice magazine! Seriously enough you’re doing us a great service by exposing the virulent nationalism your press releases try and hide! VIVA the kooks!

Finally as to why I appear to take things emotionally: It should actually be something that should make YOU wonder -- why would a person all of whose ancestors became Greek citizens in 1829 and does not consider himself the seed of Pericles etc. give a hoot -- much less spend his time arguing with your lot? And I assure you I’m not alone. The easy answer is to blame it on the “low intellect of the Ethiopian-Anatolian mongrels” and the “brainwashing of the kozi -- goats -- into the disease of Hellenism” and all the rest of the stuff you quite apparently enjoy reading on a daily basis on maknews. I have no high expectations that you will attempt to question our different understandings of nationhood to arrive at a more convincing answer.

Goran Stojanov says:

This Google is getting smarther and smarther. When I tried to translate this sentence into english:

Κι αυτό είναι καλό να το ακούσουν όχι μόνο στα Σκόπια, αλλά και στη Νέα Υόρκη και όπου αλλού χρειάζεται.

Google correctly translated it as:

And it’s good to hear not only in Macedonia but also in New York and elsewhere where needed.

I still cannot understand what exactly Mr. Droutsas wanted to say (all Greeks having Macedonian identity), but Google at least correctly understood who was he addressing. 🙂

Goran Stojanov says:

Since I don’t read Greek, I asked Google to help me:

“Mr. Gruevski is trying to monopolize the name Macedonia, even with visions of irredentism, and yfarpaxei a history, which does not belong. So I tell you plainly: the makedoniki identity is part of the identity of each Greek. I did not negotiate. And it’s good to hear not only in Macedonia but also in New York and elsewhere where needed. ”

This certainly can be understood like this: every Greek has Macedonian identity.

Or it can be understood like this: the Greek identity is multifaceted, so each Greek is 10% Macedonian, 10%Tessalian, 10%Cypriote…

Are we getting lost in the translation again?

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

Mr Stojanov wrote that he “was rather amused by the recent statement of Mr. Drucas who basically said something like: All Greeks are Macedonians”.

This is an excerpt from Mr Droutsas’ interview, regarding the Athens-Skopje UN-mediated discussions (full here):

http://i.imgur.com/VuSAw.png

I would kindly ask Mr Stojanov to translate the relevant part regarding the Macedonian identity (columns 6 to 10). If he is unable to do it, then a translation from the source of his statement will suffice. Greeks, please don’t submit a translation before him.

For convenience, this is the text:

-Στο Σκοπιανό ποια είναι η κόκκινη γραμμή της κυβέρνησης του ΠΑΣΟΚ; Μπορείτε να δεχτείτε τον όρο «makedonski» όσον αφορά στη γλώσσα, όπως φέρεται ότι συζητούσε η τέως υπουργός Εξωτερικών;

Η κόκκινη γραμμή είναι μία και μοναδική -- είναι η εθνική κόκκινη γραμμή: μία ονομασία με γεωγραφικό προσδιορισμό για όλες τις χρήσεις (erga omnes). Το ΠΑΣΟΚ ήταν που ως αντιπολίτευση χάραξε αυτή την κόκκινη γραμμή. Εμείς τη διαμορφώσαμε και η μεγάλη πλειοψηφία των πολιτικών δυνάμεων συντάχθηκε μαζί μας στη Βουλή των Ελλήνων. Αυτό είναι το σημαντικό και σε αυτό πρέπει να επικεντρώσουμε την προσοχή μας: στο ότι σήμερα η Ελλάδα έχει καταφέρει να έχει ξεκάθαρη εθνική γραμμή. Αυτό μας δίνει δύναμη -- είμαστε ενωμένοι με μία φωνή.

Οτιδήποτε άλλο κακώς συζητείται. Κακώς εισήγαγε στις προτάσεις του ο κ. Μάθιου Νίμιτς το 2005 άλλα θέματα, και, ακόμη χειρότερα, δέχτηκε τότε η κυβέρνηση του κ. Καραμανλή να τα συζητήσει. Η συζήτηση αυτή εξυπηρετεί μόνο για να τη χρησιμοποιεί ο κ. Γκρουέφσκι ώστε να εμποδίσει την πρόοδο των διαπραγματεύσεων υπό τον ΟΗΕ και την επίτευξη λύσης. Προσπαθεί ο κ. Γκρουέφσκι να μονοπωλήσει την ονομασία Μακεδονία, και μάλιστα με οράματα αλυτρωτισμού, και να υφαρπάξει ένα ιστορικό παρελθόν, το οποίο δεν του ανήκει. Εγώ λοιπόν σας λέω ξεκάθαρα: η μακεδονική ταυτότητα είναι μέρος της ταυτότητας κάθε Ελληνα. Δεν τη διαπραγματευόμαστε. Κι αυτό είναι καλό να το ακούσουν όχι μόνο στα Σκόπια, αλλά και στη Νέα Υόρκη και όπου αλλού χρειάζεται.

Goran Stojanov says:

KE, my friend,

You are taking this discussion way to seriously. And way too emotionally. Macedonian question has been around for at least 150 years, and it will remain with us for a while more. We will not solve it here. It was a nice opportunity to exchange some ideas, to learn about each other, and where are we coming from. Calling each other “zoological” names brings us nowhere.

No I will not bring up the issue of the bribed journalists, that were supposed to first manufacture, and then perpetuate the “Name Issue”. You all know about it already, along with the exact amount of millions that Greek government spent off of its “dirty cash” to achieve this “national goal”.

I was rather amused by the recent statement of Mr. Drucas who basically said something like: All Greeks are Macedonians. I was still wondering how can all 2.3 mil inhabitants of Greek Macedonia be Macedonians, when about half of them clearly define themselves as Pontians (and various other Asia Minor ethnicities), others as Vlachs, Albanians, Pomaks, Gipsies, etc… But now this confused me even more. Does this mean that now there are no Cretans, Thessalians, Peloponnesians,… you all became Macedonians?! Eleven million Macedonians?!!!

Hmmm… Will Hellenic Republic change its name into Macedonian Republic?

As for the links that you posted, I like this one the best:

“Alexander of Macedon and the discovery of America”

🙂

KE says:

A spade is a spade and a fool is a fool regardless of whether he is a skinhead violating people’s right to free speech and peaceful assembly in Athens or a journalist thinking that the way to combat Greek extremism is to embrace its Balkan enemies. And that’s just fools on our side. I can also use different terminology for several of these fools (cancers, vermin etc.) but Mr. Stojanov’s stomach appears to be selectively sensitive to a non-goat diet (he gets the latter in healthy doses at maknews).

Mrs Efstathiou-Danilovich I’m afraid you have not saved anyone any hours -- Mr. Stojanov (like all of his ilk) will regurgitate the same old tired talking points at some new venue -- it’s the same old succession of tricks I’ve witnessed over the last 17+ years, albeit in some random order -- whatever fits the mood. He’s done it here -- he’ll do it elsewhere -- to spice things up he’ll add the nouveau items of the day from time to time (like the part about Sempsis). Expect to hear about the “paid journalists” if he decides to stick around.

As for the “scholar supporters” expect robust ;-> denunciations using such strong ;-> language as “not well informed” (no wonder Mr. Damianopoulos -- not Damianakos -- did not even bother to attack Dr. Danforth). They keep their outrage for the Greeks -- when AMHRC -- whose admittedly masterfully crafted letter they chose to publicly support and extol -- declares that it is going to contact heads of departments of the signatories to the Miller letter they chose to keep silent. So much for academic freedom. Unfortunately I did not think of saving the page -- so Dr. Danforth can now keep on feigning ignorance as the thread on maknews is erased.

In any case -- this crap has been going on for 100+ years now and is certainly far older than 1992 -- and Greece’s “counterproductive” stance according to our “impartial friends”. Here’s a collection of Yugoslav-era and modern era texts which all point to the same eventual target “national unification” -- the very target UMD (and Mr. Stojanov as a member of it) appears to be aiming for behind the scenes:

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/kultura/945-Sveti-petnaeset-tiveriopolski-svestenomacenici&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhidXjp_5kFNvnZKleGhan70uk29tQ

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/istorija/960-Govor-na-Gojko-Jakovleski-na-osnovackoto-sobranie-na-VMRO-DPMNE&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhiTSpa94whMFwsWk1_PoB_XlDjntA

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/istorija/879-Titovite-slugi-izmisluvaat-makedonski-nacionalizam&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhhCPc4GoKqqQ9lYX4OHasG4KoN0CQ

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/zosto-makedonska-nacija-1971&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhileZO9Bz8ezQrYK8-V2g7AJEG1SA

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/zosto-makedonska-nacija-2009&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhiRWjufqsVp00g6cjECLEiP5c4HEA

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/istorija/823-Poteklo-na-makedonskiot-i-jazikot-na-nasite-sosedi&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhiEFst_rH4CJR4vrSTLU_KdO9weRw

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/istorija/748-Kratok-opis-na-antickata-istorijata-za-Makedonija&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhgSlQYEtNz8gar1vnofvxisn2w-6w

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/istorija/681-Makedonskata-nacija-i-nejzinata-drzavnost-vtor-del&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhhqDIaLHukPklAqe2zoovGvigvvzg

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/istorija/257-soucestvo-od-redakcijata-na-makedonska-tragedija&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhhV-AWoE-g3fevnYXxGq67wbspY7A

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/istorija/647-So-edinstvo-za-obedineta-i-samostojna-Makedonija&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhhHofPtaQPOjoQPBDfrxq6GqizrXg

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/istorija/606-Aleksandar-Makedonski-i-otkrivanjeto-na-Amerika&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhgU0BlAP6ugQDD6_dtmJBhyvQs_hw

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=mk&tl=en&u=http://www.mn.mk/istorija/471-aleksandrija-makedonski-jazik-i-dinastija&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhgOlbxwwJm2pPkTI9JKpdvn6tnIzA

Jenny Efstathiou-Danilovich says:

Mr Stojanov wrote:

Greek intellectuals […] did not consider the Ancient Macedonians to be a Hellenic nation. Paparrigopoulos, for example, one of the first Modern Greek historians, in his book “General History” published in 1848 wrote: “Macedonian nation fulfilled, in the frame of the general world history, one completely different mission than the one of the Hellenic nation.”

The terms “ethnos” (plural: ethne), “nation”, “state”, “kratos” (plural: krate), “land”, “chora” (plural: chorae), “tribe”, “genus”, are used interchangeably in many cases (a similar case is the use of “Hellenes” vs “Greeks”), in order to denote a group of related human beings. Those unfamiliar with the context and the nuances of a language (especially one different than their native), could easily misrepresent the facts.

At the time (middle of 19th century), Paparrigopoulos didn’t know what we know today. There were no inscriptions (such as Pella’s curse tablet) and no tombs (such as Philip II’s) to examine. Nevertheless, his writings stood the test of time and are still generally accepted.

Right before the aforementioned passage, Paparrigopoulos says that Macedonians were “according to the most likely scenario, a mixture of Illyrians and Hellenes, and the principal component of this mixture was the Hellenic, as derived by the language, their traditions and their relations to the other Hellenes”. In the same paragraph, he discusses further the separation between the “Hellenic” and the “Macedonian” ethne (in the sense of groups of people sharing a distinctive culture, not nations), mentioning that Macedonians “undertook the work of spreading in Asia and Africa the harvest gathered by that new civilization, until that time”. This civilization was the Western Civilization, “founded by the Hellenes”. Indeed, during the ancient Macedonian era Hellenes were united, changed their political structure and cultural perceptions and integrated other nations of the world.

Macedonian kings “considered Hercules as their originator”. The same was “advocated by the other Hellenes, and, because of that, they accepted them in Olympia (note: the ancient Olympic Games), where no one unable to prove his Hellenic heritage took part”. Macedonia’s residents “engaged early in bloody wars with Paeonians and other neighbouring ethne (meaning: tribes) of Illyrian or Thracian descent”, but they endured as “those barbarian ethne were divided in small and independent from others krate (meaning: states)”. While being culturally inferior “from the residents of mainland Hellas and the colonies”, they “received early their vibrant culture”, something that always “distinguished them from the other uneducated phylae (meaning: tribes) in the vicinity”. King Archelaus I, “managed to elevate the Macedonians to a higher level of civilization, and bring them together with the other Hellenes”. As a patron of the arts, supporting famous tragedians like Euripides, “he was indeed loved by the other Hellenes”.

Paparrigopoulos explains that “Hellas’ borders to the north were never exactly defined; because the name Hellas did not mean some country (original: chora) having permanent, natural or posted, boundaries; it meant the land (original: chora) that was inhabitted by the Hellenes”. Wherefore “early Hellas covered the land (original: chora) of a small court residing in southern Thessaly, when these Hellenes gave their name to other phylae (meaning: tribes) speaking the same language and having the same customs, Hellas essentially included all the countries (original: chorae) in which these ethnic (meaning: cultural) characters were prevalent”. But these ethnic characters “were not communicated at once” and that explains why “Hellas’ borders are reported differently by several”. We also know that “many among the geographers renounced the honour of the Hellenic name for Thessaly” (note: as the name originated in Thessaly, this is absurd and most probably political factors were involved), although “Strabo attributed it also to Macedonia”.

Another historical example is taken from the Trojan War. “The tribal revenge causing that ethnic (meaning: national) war, contributed in the approachment of the separated ethne (meaning: tribes and groups of tribes) of Hellas”; although a negative was that “the Hellenic ethne unlearned of the patriarchic simplicity” and went back to an “independent political existence”.

Summarizing, Paparrigopoulos states that “while split in many independent states, the Hellenes remained one ethnos (meaning: nation), because of the similarity of civilization (meaning: cultural kinship), of ways and ethoi (meaning: customs)”. There is “no need for other external visible links, to understand the development and preservation of the Hellenic ethnicity”, due to the “internal link attaching those individual ethne (meaning: regionally connected groups of tribes) to one another”.

Scanned excerpts from the original “Handbook of General History”:

http://i.imgur.com/QUvun.png

Conclusion: one has to be aware of the terminology and its several uses throughout history.

I’ve probably saved Mr Stojanov’s compatriots thousands of hours wasted in repeatedly repeating the same lines, over and over again, without even having the basic language skills required to understand what they’re talking about. Unless, of course, I’m mistaken and some of them are doing this on purpose. One might even suggest that this is sactioned by the deafening silence of several of their seemingly agenda-pursuing scholar supporters.

But everything has its price, I guess.