ΑΡΧΑΙΟΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ says:

Η ανεξάλειπτη έως και σήμερα πραγματικότητα των ”αλβανικών φατριών” επιβεβαιώνει με τον καλύτερο δυνατό τρόπο και εισέτι περαιτέρω τα προηγούμενά μου:τη δυσκολία ανεύρεσης και διαμόρφωσης ”αλβανικής εθνικής ταυτότητας” όσο και ”προσανατολισμού” για το φαιδρό σας σήμερα.Το να επιζητής(!;),μάλιστα και ιδίως,και καθ’όλη(!;) τη διάρκεια της (εξόχως σύντομης ούτως ή άλλως) ιστορικής ιχνηλασίας σου ‘σε αυτόν τον κόσμο,’σε αυτήν τη γη,”κηδεμονία” και ”κηδεμόνευση”,μόνον ”εθνική ταυτότητα δε συνθέτει και δε δηλώνει και δε σφυρηλατεί αλλά μάλλον δουλοπρέπεια και χαμέρπεια βίου αποδεικνύει ‘σε κάθε περίπτωση με κάθε βήμα (ένδειξη της πνευματικής ανωριμότητάς σας και υποστάθμης και της πολιτισμικής καθυστέρησης/υπανάπτυξης).

Υ.Γ.Τείνω να δεχθώ κατά καιρούς και τόπους διαφόρους αυτό το ”σκαταλβανός/σκαταλβανοί” που σας αποδίδουν μερικοί εξαιτίας της ευτέλειας με την οποία συμπεριφέρεται η συντριπτική πλειοψηφία σας προς τους άλλους λαούς ‘στο διεθνές,παγκόσμιο στερέωμα,πια,όσο και εξαιτίας της ευτέλειας πάλι και προχειρότητας με την οποία αντιμετωπίζει το γενιτσαρικό σινάφι σας την ιστορία και το ιστορικό φαινόμενο εν γένει.

Υ.Γ.2’Στο συνθεσάιζερ και ‘στο μιξ και ρεμίξ είσθε καλοί και ικανοποιητικοί,βελτιώνεσθε και εξελίσσεσθε,όπως και,εν μέρει,’στο κατσικοκλέφτικο,κατσαπλιάδικο κλαρίνο σας.’ΣΤΗΝ ΙΣΤΟΡΙΑ,ΟΜΩΣ,ΣΑΣ ΑΓΓΙΖΟΥΜΕ ΚΑΙ ΣΑΣ ‘ΒΓΑΖΟΥΜΕ ΤΟΝ ΠΑΤΟ.

AOAEG says:

“a person who struggles desperately to promote that ancient Macedonians were Illyrians, but cant even find a single ancient source where Macedonians clearly identified themselves as Illyrians and the opposite. Go figure!!”

You got no clue about ancient sources…How many time should I repeat this plain fact? All of ancient testimonies make it explicit that Macedonians were not Greeks; their language was not intelligible for the most Greeks. To sum it up, Macedonians were clearly segregated from Greeks in all aspects. This consideration should not be passed with a silence. It’s quite fashionable among Greek nationalist to enhance the “importance” of some selected phrases of Herodotus taken out (as usual) from their real context. Let’s analyze an important passage on Herodotus account:

137. Now of this Alexander the seventh ancestor was that Perdiccas who first became despot of the Macedonians, and that in the manner which here follows:–From Argos there fled to the Illyrians three brothers of the descendents of Temenos, Gauanes, Aëropos, and Perdiccas; and passing over from the Illyrians into the upper parts of Macedonia they came to the city of Lebaia.

137. τοῦ δὲ Ἀλεξάνδρου τούτου ἕβδομος γενέτωρ Περδίκκης ἐστὶ ὁ κτησάμενος τῶν Μακεδόνων τὴν τυραννίδα τρόπῳ τοιῷδε. ἐξ Ἄργεος ἔφυγον ἐς Ἰλλυριοὺς τῶν Τημένου ἀπογόνων τρεῖς ἀδελφεοί, Γαυάνης τε καὶ Ἀέροπος καὶ Περδίκκης, ἐκ δὲ Ἰλλυριῶν ὑπερβαλόντες ἐς τὴν ἄνω Μακεδονίην ἀπίκοντο ἐς Λεβαίην πόλιν.

It can not be ignored the very fact that Macedones were established in a territory which previously was peopled densely by either Illyrians and Thracians. That’s why the legends of foundation of first kingdom mentioned Illyria or Illyrians. The above Herodotes’s story invoke that Illyria or Illyrians were the first neighbors of Macedones. In that paragraph we learn that Illyria was situated in outskirts of Argos, Upper Macedonia and Lebaia city. Judging by this literary testimony, the Macedonian ethnogenesis is related narrowly with the Illyrians. Herodotus’s story makes known the direction of three Macedonian brothers: firstly they fled to the Illyrians…and passing from Illyrians they came in a certain city of Upper Macedonia called Lebaia. So a large portion of what became Macedonia was previously called Ἰλλυριοὺς and its inhabitants as Illyrians. There is a plethora of facts emphasizing the solid Illyrian presence in Upper Macedonia as well as Lower Macedonia. I highly doubt that the so called “Peleponnesia origin” of Macedonians has any value since the Macedonians did not come from there. I think it was all a matter of confusion with the another Argos, which is situated in Orestia (who is thought to be the homeland of Maketas). By the way, Orestes as well as their neighboring countries had clear Illyrian features. To sum it up, Macedonians were most probably Illyrians…or kinsmen of them. The colonization of Macedonia’s coast with Hellenic colonies brought up a new era, where Hellenism begun to extent in the very interior of the country. This was facilitated even by diplomatic efforts of Macedonian aristocracy to be engaged in Hellenic affairs in order to establish themselves as overlords of Hellas (which was suffering the causalities of long civil war of Athens-Sparta rivalry).

AOAEG says:

“ancient Macedonians identified themselves as Greeks”

Never mind! If Macedonians themselves identified themselves as Greek, then how on earth came the long mutual animosity between both of them? If they identified themselves as Greeks, then Macedonian identity would be erased as logic dictates. On the contrary, Macedonians kept alive their separate identity which has nothing to do with that of Greeks.

AOAEG says:

“Who even told you that i am interested to waste more of my time with you by signing up in forums or elsewhere?”

hahahah spoke like a True Greek who has no balls to be challenged by anyone. Instead, you want to enjoy the commodity of being hermetically closed in the Greek nationalist pages.

AOAEG says:

“Why do you waste my time with another round of ludicrous assumptions which naturally result in false and ridiculous conclusions?”

You’re wasting your own time by trying desperately to point out the opposite of my conclusions.

AOAEG says:

“I requested from u simply to provide ancient sources where Macedonians clearly identified themselves as Illyrians and the opposite, if you want to be taken seriously”.

If you want to have a serious debate regarding your question, we have first to find out a proper space for our polemics. I don’t think the blogg’s section comments are the best way for a wide debate. I challenged you in any other English (impartial if it is possible), but you have not responded yet…

AOAEG says:

“No surprise though, since we both know ancient historians saw ancient Macedonians and Illyrians as two seperate and unrelated people”.

Ignorance at its best. I do not give much credit to the judgment of Greeks when it comes to interpretate the very content of ancient testimonies written by Greek authors. Usually you intentionally pick up some pieces out of context in order to obtain fallacious conclusions that suits to your agenda. You’re naively confusing the ‘separatness’ of Illyrians vs Macedonians with being them as “un-related people’. I don’t deny that Illyrians and Macedonians during all the antic period had a separate existence in terms of political entity, but this does not mean they were two different people, does it? To reinforce that I’ll present a significant passage taken out from Strabo the Geographer:

Strab. 10.3.6: “Concerning the Curetes still further accounts, to the following effect, are given, some of them being more closely related to the history of the Aetolians and the Acarnanians, others more remotely. More closely related are such accounts as I have given before—that the Curetes were living in the country which is now called Aetolia”.

Strab. 10.3.1: “As for the Curetes, some assign them to the Acarnanians, others to the Aetolians…”

If we are to believe Strabo’s account on ethnic background of Aetolians and Acarnanians, we realize that both of them were seeds of former Curetes at some degree. I am inclined to believe that such a premise may serve in the case of Illyrians and Macedonians. The archeological discoveries done by both Albanian and Greek archeologists revealed an united culture at least from Late Neolithic age from the Southern Albania all the way to Macedonia which they conventionally called as ‘Pelasgian’ substratum. The ancient sources suggest that pockets of the scattered Pelasgian population could be found at least until Classical period in both Macedonia and Southern Illyria (Epirus). The Illyrians and Macedonian had Pelasgian ruts (although this has been not well-defined), which is why they had many commonalities with one another. Do you get my point? I’ve no issue to accept in principle your statement about the separate being of both people. But in all probability, the separate being says nothing about ethnic nature.

P.S: I’d like to express my gratitude to the brief allowing of my comments here!

AOAEG says:

“Definitively, the Albanian national trait is lying and promoting ridiculous theories with no proof”.

The “Macedonism” of your lot is a recent invention, to begin with. You know better than me how “Greeks” of Macedonia were related to their “Macedonian” past. You invented out the Macedonism by erecting statues of Alexander and Philip across Aegean Macedonia, renamed airports and streets by reviving ancient Macedonian names, waving nationalistic slogans like: “η Μακεδονία είναι Ελληνική”. Does this constitute a solid proof about your Macedonism? I am afraid not…

AOAEG says:

“the Albanian national trait is lying and promoting ridiculous theories with no proof”.

Oh really? Albanian national trait never abused with the ancient history to justify its current policy. We never used selected parts of the past to design a new nationalist project against other people. It’s crystal clear that Greece launched an anachronistic project called as ‘Megali Idea’, where the boundaries of new Greece are going to embrace the former territories of Byzantine Empire. By the way, the boundaries drew by your intelligentsia were not in concordance with the demographic situation of Balkans. Oh, I forgot that all orthodox Christians were labeled constantly as ‘Greeks’. A countless number of European scholars in their accounts clearly recognized Albanians as heirs of the ancient Macedonians. I am not sure if any European scholar thought “Greeks” of Macedonia as descendants of the Macedonians!

Let us serve with a quote written exactly in the period we are speaking about:

“… it is generally recognized to-day that the Albanians are the most ancient race in southeastern Europe. All indications point to the fact that they are the descendants of the earliest Aryan immigrants who were represented in historical times by the kindred Illyrians, Macedonians, and Epirots”.

“The Albanians are among the very oldest inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula. Classical authors give the names of very many tribes which dwelt in those lands when history dawns.

“The Greeks classed them as “barbarians” and they spoke a non-Greek tongue.They were united in groups under native kings, and of these groups some of the most important were the Macedonians, the Illyrians, and the Epirotes”.

“The sister of Alexander, king of the Molossi, was the mother of Alexander the Great; the men who marched to Babylon, Persia and India were the ancestors of the Albanians”

“The historical heroes of Albania are Alexander the Great, Pyrrhus, and Scanderbeg; and in modern times, if it is allowable to mention one so mean in connection with those great names—Ali Pasha”.

I won’t display all of them because of my scanty time. I know what your answer would be. This collection of quotes is out-dated since its written by scholars who were neither historians nor up-dated with the recent discoveries. I do not claim them as being historians but I want just to draw the attention about what was the opinion of most Europeans in regard with the Macedonia, much time before the ‘Macedonian name dispute” occurred. If the Albanians want to misuse the ancient past for their present agenda, then they would use it by erecting statues of Alexander and Philip like you Greeks and your colleagues from FYROM.

AOAEG says:

“Another proof that Macedonians and Illyrians were different people”.

Oh common! I thought your knowledge was a little more than a cynical denial of every Illyro-Macedonian cultural links. Culturally, Macedonians and Illyrians were similar to one another. The Macedonian ethnogenesis is narrowly related with the Illyrians. It’s not me who is saying that but the ancient testimonies and archeological discoveries as well.

AOAEG says:

“Had they be the same, Macedonians would promote the Illyrian “culture”.

The Parthian kings promoted as well the imported Hellenic culture depth in Asia. I suspect if this fact constitute a safe marker about their real ethnicity.

AOAEG says:

“Does the above in the simplistic Albanian mind constitutes an “argument”?

Stick on the central topic please. Don’t throw words back and forth like a little girl! I suggest you to not misinterpret the content of my post. I was saying that systematic Greek excavations in the heartland of ancient Macedonia revealed an Illyrian culture prior to the Argead expansion in the lower Macedonia. Am I wrong? The argument is incontestable: the Macedonian nation emerged in symbiosis with the Illyrian substratum. Is that hard to put in your thick skull? If yes, I am afraid we are wasting our time for nothing.

AOAEG says:

“What kind of good relations Illyrians of Upper Macedonia? Are you on drugs or something? the relations of Macedonians, both Argeads and the ones from Upper Macedonia with Illyrians were constant conflicts and wars”.

I am not on drugs and I am fully aware what I am saying! The Macedonian kingdom reached its zenith with the incorporation of the autonomous regions of the Western Macedonia, whose Illyrian being is well-attested. I am not rejecting the constant conflicts they had with one another from 8th century B.C up to IVth century B.C. For the sake of truth, we simply cannot ignore that Macedonian nation emerged with the incorporation of Illyrians in the Argead kingdom. The political rivalry says nothing about ethnic nature of them.

AOAEG says:

“Sure!! Thats why not a single Illyrian was ever found in the “most honored ranks” of their army”.

To put it simple I’ve a quiz for you. Who was a princess who headed the Macedonians in wars in the post-Alexander period?

AOAEG says:

“If you want to promote further your self-contradicted claims, at least provide ancient sources where it is clearly stated that: Macedonians identified themselves as Illyrians and versa”.

Good you mention the ancient sources. They are full of passages pointing out the very fact that Macedonians were proud of their Macedonian identity, not matter how the Greeks despised it with the most pejorative terms. The Macedonian ruling elite in start was eager to benefit a Hellenic identity but later on, it kicked out of the window and were proud of its “barbarian” being. Macedonians have to chose between the brightness of Hellenic culture or their backward culture…And they chose simply their ancestral culture, which was the same as that of Illyrians.

AOAEG says:

“Until then your theories remain what they really are… Garbage!!

You’re not accustomed to debate in a normal manner. Maybe this is not your fault…from your childhood you were taught to not show the reverse side of the coin. But, truth as always prevails. I guess you feel a little bit anxious but this is a healthy process in itself. You are gradually passing the narrow imaginary world built up by your politicans. Congrats, then.

P.S: Well, the question on ancient Macedones is wide so I do not think this the proper space to elaborate in its extent. I would be happy if we can continue our debate in another neutral forum in English. Thnx!

ΑΡΧΑΙΟΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ says:

Really?Are you Albanian or Skopjan and you quote here again your parahistoric ”knowledge”,which you have been taught in your primary school?

ΑΡΧΑΙΟΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ says:

Do you want passionately to be repeated,to say the same things,my friend Πύρρε?Don’t you realise that you are and you become,at least,boring at all?

Leave these crazyness to history, and think how you will deal with the crisis. Thanas Shterngo Rripin. “Sick Nationalism is the last House of disshonest people”

pirro says:

Dear Sir,

tell me Who was ancient or new historian-author that has remembered with name -- `macedonian tribues`? Where lived Mcedonian tribues? As I know- in place of todays Macedonian state- has been all illyrian tribues like Lykenas (in albanian language does it mean- liqena or they that lives near lake).