Ancient Macedonians had nothing in common with Illyrians

 

AncientMacedonianHistory1 Ancient Macedonians had nothing in common with Illyrians


We have been accustomed in this blog to reading groundless claims from Albanian Nationalists regarding an alleged connection between Ancient Macedonians and Illyrians.  While all the available archaeological and literary evidence makes it explicit that Ancient Macedonians and their Barbarian Illyrian neighbours shared nothing in common – except a common border –  it has becoming tiresome to point out the obvious again and again to such terribly misinformed souls.


Fact is that the eminent historians and linguistic scholars still argue even on the alleged connection between Illyrians and modern Albanians. However in this article, we will limit ourselves in useful conclusions after examining the evidence coming out from the ancient literary and archaeological sources.  


(a) Ancient Macedonians Never identified themselves as Illyrians.


Its a painstaking task to repeat ourselves that exactly NOT a single quote from ancient sources exist where an ancient Macedonian identifies himself as an Illyrian. Any informed reader could easily find ancient Macedonians identifying themselves as being Greek, but NOWHERE any Macedonian links himself with Illyrians.  Macedonian  never regarded Illyrians as their kinsmen. Alexander the Great left no doubt as to who the Ancient Macedonians were by emphasizing the Otherness of the Illyrians, in contrast with the Macedonian acknowledgement of being Greek:


“There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours ! They will be fighting for pay— and not much of it at that; WE on the contrary shall fight for GREECE, and our hearts will be in it. As for our FOREIGN troops —Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,Agrianes — they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia.


Arrian (The Campaigns of Alexander) Alexander talking to the troops before the battle. Book 2-7 Penguin Classics. Page 112. Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.


(b) Ancient Sources always distinguish ancient Macedonians and Illyrians


Another key element that needs to be addressed is the fact that ancient Greek, Roman, Jewish, Persian sources always seperate ancient Macedonians and Illyrians for the sole reason that they were two completely Unrelated people. In the same manner, Macedonia is always portrayed as an entirely different region from ancient Illyria. Of course neither this plain truth seems to bother Albanian propagandists who have placed the bulk of their cynical propaganda behind comical “arguments”, being serious contestants to the imagination of their Slavic neighbours from FYROM.


(c) Ancient Macedonians spoke a different language from Illyrians


The Greek language was unintelligible to Illyrians, hence translators were used in their exchanges between Macedonians and Illyrians. Even much later than Alexander’s era, interpreters are used, as the evidence reveals from the negotiations between the Greek-speaking Macedonians of Perseas and Illyrians [Polybius 28.8]


(d) Ancient Macedonians and Illyrians had a different Religion and different Customs


Since Macedonians were Greeks, they shared  the common religious and cultural features of the Hellenic world. Consequently the gods worshipped among Southern Greeks can also be found in Macedonia. However regional characteristics have to be noted. On the other hand, the 12 gods of Olympus were not shared by Illyrians. Aristophanes in his “Όρνιθες” [1520-1523], places the gods οf the Triballians/Illyrians above Zeus, distinguishing this way the 12 Olympian Gods from the gods of Triballians/Illyrians. A clear delimitation of the Hellenic world and its borders with Illyrians. Similarly, those two ancient people had different culture. Herodotus refers to the Eneti tribe in Illyria and their habit of taking their daughters to the marketplace to sell them for marriage, a Barbarian custom which was found only among Babylonians.


The ancient sources leave no doubt that the ancients saw among Macedonians and Illyrians not only two Alien people, but the persistent source-tradition portrays Illyrians as the greatest enemies of Macedonians. Illyrian incursions in Macedonian territory was a frequent phenomenon before Philip’s Reign. During Perdiccas and Brasidas joint expedition, their Illyrian Allies changed sides without scruples and became the chief instrument or the explulsion of the Macedonian expeditionary force. Later, Illyrians resisted the power of Archelaos‘ resurgent Macedon. Amyntas, the father of Philip II, was driven out of his country by Illyrians who invaded Macedonia. He could surely give up hope for his crown, had the Thessalians not decided to intervene, in order to restore him to his throne. Philip’s brother, Perdiccas III was killed during a battle against Illyrians together with 4,000 Macedonians. Phillip’s massive victory against the Bardyllis, possibly in 359 BC, put an end to the ambitious plans of the Illyrian king. Alexander the Great, in the battle of Pelium (335 BC) defeated the Illyrian forces of Glaukias and Cleitus. The persistent armed conflicts between the two rival people kept up during Hellenistic ages till the Roman Occupation.


Furthermore, as Papazoglou mentions (Pap. 1957, 224-230; 1985), it is significant that despite the close contacts with Epirus and Upper Macedonia, the strong Hellenization and the use of the Greek language especially during the Roman period, the Illyrian Dasaretioi were never assimilated by the Macedonians, and their land was not taken into the administrative borders of the Macedonian districts established in 167 BC. So, although the Illyrians at Lychnitis were conquered by Philip II in 358 BC (Diodorus XVI 4–5; 8, 1), the ethnic border between the Illyrians, on one side, and the Paeonians and Macedonians, on the other, always lay to the east of Lake Ochrid — ancient Lychnitis, and the Dassaretis area respectively (Papazoglu 1957, 224–230; 1985;  e.g. Livy XXXII 9, wrote that the Illyrian Dasaretioi were the neighbours of the Macedonian Lynkestai).



Related posts:

Want more of this? See these Posts:

  1. The ‘Hellenization’ argument contradiction about ancient macedonians
  2. FYROM propaganda regarding the ethnicity of ancient Macedonians
  3. Who were the Ancient Macedonians?
  4. The Language of ancient Macedonians
  5. Chatzimarkakis : “Makedonski” originates from Bulgarian Dialects and ancient Macedonians were Greeks
Comments
ΑΡΧΑΙΟΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ says:

Your anguished,neurotic,satiable illusions,painted with the colours of McDonald’s and Goody’s,are completely contrary to our world.Axiomatic phrases without any serious effort to convince us with evidence don’t have any basis here.Very far from being a serious dialogue.

ΑΡΧΑΙΟΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ says:

Η ανεξάλειπτη έως και σήμερα πραγματικότητα των ”αλβανικών φατριών” επιβεβαιώνει με τον καλύτερο δυνατό τρόπο και εισέτι περαιτέρω τα προηγούμενά μου:τη δυσκολία ανεύρεσης και διαμόρφωσης ”αλβανικής εθνικής ταυτότητας” όσο και ”προσανατολισμού” για το φαιδρό σας σήμερα.Το να επιζητής(!;),μάλιστα και ιδίως,και καθ’όλη(!;) τη διάρκεια της (εξόχως σύντομης ούτως ή άλλως) ιστορικής ιχνηλασίας σου ‘σε αυτόν τον κόσμο,’σε αυτήν τη γη,”κηδεμονία” και ”κηδεμόνευση”,μόνον ”εθνική ταυτότητα δε συνθέτει και δε δηλώνει και δε σφυρηλατεί αλλά μάλλον δουλοπρέπεια και χαμέρπεια βίου αποδεικνύει ‘σε κάθε περίπτωση με κάθε βήμα (ένδειξη της πνευματικής ανωριμότητάς σας και υποστάθμης και της πολιτισμικής καθυστέρησης/υπανάπτυξης).

Υ.Γ.Τείνω να δεχθώ κατά καιρούς και τόπους διαφόρους αυτό το ”σκαταλβανός/σκαταλβανοί” που σας αποδίδουν μερικοί εξαιτίας της ευτέλειας με την οποία συμπεριφέρεται η συντριπτική πλειοψηφία σας προς τους άλλους λαούς ‘στο διεθνές,παγκόσμιο στερέωμα,πια,όσο και εξαιτίας της ευτέλειας πάλι και προχειρότητας με την οποία αντιμετωπίζει το γενιτσαρικό σινάφι σας την ιστορία και το ιστορικό φαινόμενο εν γένει.

Υ.Γ.2’Στο συνθεσάιζερ και ‘στο μιξ και ρεμίξ είσθε καλοί και ικανοποιητικοί,βελτιώνεσθε και εξελίσσεσθε,όπως και,εν μέρει,’στο κατσικοκλέφτικο,κατσαπλιάδικο κλαρίνο σας.’ΣΤΗΝ ΙΣΤΟΡΙΑ,ΟΜΩΣ,ΣΑΣ ΑΓΓΙΖΟΥΜΕ ΚΑΙ ΣΑΣ ‘ΒΓΑΖΟΥΜΕ ΤΟΝ ΠΑΤΟ.

ΑΡΧΑΙΟΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ says:

Δεν έχεις να κομίσης κάτι το νέο,όσο και να το προσπαθής,εκτός των συνήθων ψευδών και των…κατά παραγγελίαν παραληρημάτων/”παραληρημάτων” των γνωστών και μη εξαιρετέων (ενν.αυτοαποκαλουμένων) Σκιπετάρων,που και η μητέρα των (όχι η Τερέζα!),ακόμη,δεν είναι δυνατό να πιστεύση και να εμπιστευθή,να ασπασθή και να ενστερνισθή τους τρικυμιώδεις λόγους των (εγκρυπτόμενοι) περί της ”Φυσικής/Μεγάλης” Σκιπερίας.Το να μας παραθέτης απλώς και μόνον και επί τούτου τα σημεία διαφωνίας και ένστασής σου με τον προλαλήσαντα και,μάλιστα,με αρχαίες ελληνικές παραπομπές(!;),συγκεχυμένες και αποκεκομμένες από το πλαίσιο της επιστήμης,μειώνοντας και λοιδορώντας τον,καταδεικνύει αφενός μεν τη διαχεόμενη σύγχυσή σου αυτή που πηγάζει από το σωβινισμό (βλ. σκοταδισμό και ιδεοληψία) με τον οποίο έχετε παιδιόθεν γαλουχηθή σχεδόν οι πάντες σας αφετέρου δε το χαμηλό επίπεδο αυτοσυνειδησίας σας* και εθνοταυτοτικής διάκρισής σας ακόμη και σήμερα,’στο λυκαυγές του Εικοστού Πρώτου αιώνα.

Να το γνωρίζης πάντως:ο φόβος και ο τρόμος σας γύρω από την παλινόρθωση αυτής της Μεγάλης Ιδέας των Ελλήνων,την οποία και καθυβρίζεις αισχρότατα,θα σημάνη και το τέλος και παρελθόν τόσο της ”Τσαμουριάς” όσο και της ”Κοσσόβας” σας.

Αν δε γνωρίζης την ελληνική,δε,για να μελετήσης όσα σου γράφω από εδώ,με ‘βρίσκεις αδιάφορο,πρόβλημά σ ο υ,πήγαινε να προμηθευθής από το πλησιέστερο βιβλιοπωλείο σου βιβλία.Η αμάθειά σας,εξάλλου,ανταγωνίζεται πλήρως επαξίως και είναι εφάμιλλη,αν μη τι άλλο,αν όχι παχυλότερη εκείνης των Σλαβοσκοπιανοβουλγάρων.Δεν έχετε και δεν υπάρχει λόγος και ανάγκη να την ανταγωνισθήτε.Είσθε και οι πρώτοι!

*[το ”αλβανικό πνεύμα” και ”ήθος” και η ”αλβανική (υπο)κουλτούρα” βλέπεις!;]

Drilon says:

AOAEG says:

“a person who struggles desperately to promote that ancient Macedonians were Illyrians, but cant even find a single ancient source where Macedonians clearly identified themselves as Illyrians and the opposite. Go figure!!”

You got no clue about ancient sources…How many time should I repeat this plain fact? All of ancient testimonies make it explicit that Macedonians were not Greeks; their language was not intelligible for the most Greeks. To sum it up, Macedonians were clearly segregated from Greeks in all aspects. This consideration should not be passed with a silence. It’s quite fashionable among Greek nationalist to enhance the “importance” of some selected phrases of Herodotus taken out (as usual) from their real context. Let’s analyze an important passage on Herodotus account:

137. Now of this Alexander the seventh ancestor was that Perdiccas who first became despot of the Macedonians, and that in the manner which here follows:–From Argos there fled to the Illyrians three brothers of the descendents of Temenos, Gauanes, Aëropos, and Perdiccas; and passing over from the Illyrians into the upper parts of Macedonia they came to the city of Lebaia.

137. τοῦ δὲ Ἀλεξάνδρου τούτου ἕβδομος γενέτωρ Περδίκκης ἐστὶ ὁ κτησάμενος τῶν Μακεδόνων τὴν τυραννίδα τρόπῳ τοιῷδε. ἐξ Ἄργεος ἔφυγον ἐς Ἰλλυριοὺς τῶν Τημένου ἀπογόνων τρεῖς ἀδελφεοί, Γαυάνης τε καὶ Ἀέροπος καὶ Περδίκκης, ἐκ δὲ Ἰλλυριῶν ὑπερβαλόντες ἐς τὴν ἄνω Μακεδονίην ἀπίκοντο ἐς Λεβαίην πόλιν.

It can not be ignored the very fact that Macedones were established in a territory which previously was peopled densely by either Illyrians and Thracians. That’s why the legends of foundation of first kingdom mentioned Illyria or Illyrians. The above Herodotes’s story invoke that Illyria or Illyrians were the first neighbors of Macedones. In that paragraph we learn that Illyria was situated in outskirts of Argos, Upper Macedonia and Lebaia city. Judging by this literary testimony, the Macedonian ethnogenesis is related narrowly with the Illyrians. Herodotus’s story makes known the direction of three Macedonian brothers: firstly they fled to the Illyrians…and passing from Illyrians they came in a certain city of Upper Macedonia called Lebaia. So a large portion of what became Macedonia was previously called Ἰλλυριοὺς and its inhabitants as Illyrians. There is a plethora of facts emphasizing the solid Illyrian presence in Upper Macedonia as well as Lower Macedonia. I highly doubt that the so called “Peleponnesia origin” of Macedonians has any value since the Macedonians did not come from there. I think it was all a matter of confusion with the another Argos, which is situated in Orestia (who is thought to be the homeland of Maketas). By the way, Orestes as well as their neighboring countries had clear Illyrian features. To sum it up, Macedonians were most probably Illyrians…or kinsmen of them. The colonization of Macedonia’s coast with Hellenic colonies brought up a new era, where Hellenism begun to extent in the very interior of the country. This was facilitated even by diplomatic efforts of Macedonian aristocracy to be engaged in Hellenic affairs in order to establish themselves as overlords of Hellas (which was suffering the causalities of long civil war of Athens-Sparta rivalry).

AOAEG says:

“ancient Macedonians identified themselves as Greeks”

Never mind! If Macedonians themselves identified themselves as Greek, then how on earth came the long mutual animosity between both of them? If they identified themselves as Greeks, then Macedonian identity would be erased as logic dictates. On the contrary, Macedonians kept alive their separate identity which has nothing to do with that of Greeks.

AOAEG says:

“Who even told you that i am interested to waste more of my time with you by signing up in forums or elsewhere?”

hahahah spoke like a True Greek who has no balls to be challenged by anyone. Instead, you want to enjoy the commodity of being hermetically closed in the Greek nationalist pages.

Aftoi_Oi_Albanoi_exoun_gelio says:

—-
“You’re wasting your own time by trying desperately to point out the opposite of my conclusions”
—-

Indeed i am wasting my time with a person who struggles desperately to promote that ancient Macedonians were Illyrians, but cant even find a single (1) ancient source where Macedonians clearly identified themselves as Illyrians and the opposite. Go figure!!

—-
I do not give much credit to the judgment of Greeks when it comes to interpretate the very content of ancient testimonies written by Greek authors. Usually you intentionally pick up some pieces out of context in order to obtain fallacious conclusions that suits to your agenda.
—-

The last line could be easily attributed as your self-criticism. Until now you keep up making self-contradicted claims in order to reach your false conclusions.

On one hand, we have plenty of accounts where more or less ancient Macedonians identified themselves as Greeks and No account of being Illyrians. In order to counter it, you claim that (a) this took place allegedly in order to “benefit from a Hellenic identity” and (b) the fact that no ancient account of them exists to identify themselves as Illyrians is totally ignored conveniently for your agenda. Conversely, you claim somewhere that they were “proud of their Barbarian being”.

So in essence you claim the fact that ancient Macedonians identified as Greek does not count for you as proof of being Greek, since they somehow “posed” to be Greeks for “their benefit”. Similarly the fact that nowhere in ancient sources they are portrayed to claim being Illyrians is no evidence either, while “being proud of their barbarian being” is evidence that they simply were not Greeks.

Its a common trait of all the Albanians i have seen up to now to deny any proof against their own preconcieved conclusions, since for them only positive feedback for their agendas count. If you deny any possibility of evidence to count against it then simply you do not attend in a constructive discussion but in a tiresome monologue.

Regarding your claim about “separateness” even many historians tend to have a different opinion. A couple of years ago i contacted one of those who didnt subscribed as being Greeks. His justification was mostly that they were two separate people. Even in Borza’s account, he mentions the available evidence about their origins is inconclusive but his justification of their alleged “non-greekness” lies to the premise that they emerged as a people distinct from the southern Greeks.

—-
“If you want to have a serious debate regarding your question, we have first to find out a proper space for our polemics…. I challenged you in any other English (impartial if it is possible), but you have not responded yet…”
—-

Who even told you that i am interested to waste more of my time with you by signing up in forums or elsewhere? My internet time has been incredibly shrinked during last months and I am already fed up with myself even for the time that i wasted so far here for nothing.

Drilon says:

AOAEG says:

“Why do you waste my time with another round of ludicrous assumptions which naturally result in false and ridiculous conclusions?”

You’re wasting your own time by trying desperately to point out the opposite of my conclusions.

AOAEG says:

“I requested from u simply to provide ancient sources where Macedonians clearly identified themselves as Illyrians and the opposite, if you want to be taken seriously”.

If you want to have a serious debate regarding your question, we have first to find out a proper space for our polemics. I don’t think the blogg’s section comments are the best way for a wide debate. I challenged you in any other English (impartial if it is possible), but you have not responded yet…

AOAEG says:

“No surprise though, since we both know ancient historians saw ancient Macedonians and Illyrians as two seperate and unrelated people”.

Ignorance at its best. I do not give much credit to the judgment of Greeks when it comes to interpretate the very content of ancient testimonies written by Greek authors. Usually you intentionally pick up some pieces out of context in order to obtain fallacious conclusions that suits to your agenda. You’re naively confusing the ‘separatness’ of Illyrians vs Macedonians with being them as “un-related people’. I don’t deny that Illyrians and Macedonians during all the antic period had a separate existence in terms of political entity, but this does not mean they were two different people, does it? To reinforce that I’ll present a significant passage taken out from Strabo the Geographer:

Strab. 10.3.6: “Concerning the Curetes still further accounts, to the following effect, are given, some of them being more closely related to the history of the Aetolians and the Acarnanians, others more remotely. More closely related are such accounts as I have given before—that the Curetes were living in the country which is now called Aetolia”.

Strab. 10.3.1: “As for the Curetes, some assign them to the Acarnanians, others to the Aetolians…”

If we are to believe Strabo’s account on ethnic background of Aetolians and Acarnanians, we realize that both of them were seeds of former Curetes at some degree. I am inclined to believe that such a premise may serve in the case of Illyrians and Macedonians. The archeological discoveries done by both Albanian and Greek archeologists revealed an united culture at least from Late Neolithic age from the Southern Albania all the way to Macedonia which they conventionally called as ‘Pelasgian’ substratum. The ancient sources suggest that pockets of the scattered Pelasgian population could be found at least until Classical period in both Macedonia and Southern Illyria (Epirus). The Illyrians and Macedonian had Pelasgian ruts (although this has been not well-defined), which is why they had many commonalities with one another. Do you get my point? I’ve no issue to accept in principle your statement about the separate being of both people. But in all probability, the separate being says nothing about ethnic nature.

P.S: I’d like to express my gratitude to the brief allowing of my comments here!

Aftoi_Oi_Albanoi_exoun_gelio says:

Why do you waste my time with another round of ludicrous assumptions which naturally result in false and ridiculous conclusions?

I requested from u simply to provide ancient sources where Macedonians clearly identified themselves as Illyrians and the opposite, if you want to be taken seriously.

Instead you completely ignore it and stuck to the same old unsubstantiated garbage. No surprise though, since we both know ancient historians saw ancient Macedonians and Illyrians as two seperate and unrelated people.

Had all these ludicrus assumptions your promoted any merit, the ancient sources would be full of accounts portraying ancient Macedonians to speak proudly of being Illyrians.

So next time before you bring your next round of irrelevant crap, firstly provide what you were asked for or simply dont bother wasting my time!

Drilon says:

AOAEG says:

“Definitively, the Albanian national trait is lying and promoting ridiculous theories with no proof”.

The “Macedonism” of your lot is a recent invention, to begin with. You know better than me how “Greeks” of Macedonia were related to their “Macedonian” past. You invented out the Macedonism by erecting statues of Alexander and Philip across Aegean Macedonia, renamed airports and streets by reviving ancient Macedonian names, waving nationalistic slogans like: “η Μακεδονία είναι Ελληνική”. Does this constitute a solid proof about your Macedonism? I am afraid not…

AOAEG says:

“the Albanian national trait is lying and promoting ridiculous theories with no proof”.

Oh really? Albanian national trait never abused with the ancient history to justify its current policy. We never used selected parts of the past to design a new nationalist project against other people. It’s crystal clear that Greece launched an anachronistic project called as ‘Megali Idea’, where the boundaries of new Greece are going to embrace the former territories of Byzantine Empire. By the way, the boundaries drew by your intelligentsia were not in concordance with the demographic situation of Balkans. Oh, I forgot that all orthodox Christians were labeled constantly as ‘Greeks’. A countless number of European scholars in their accounts clearly recognized Albanians as heirs of the ancient Macedonians. I am not sure if any European scholar thought “Greeks” of Macedonia as descendants of the Macedonians!

Let us serve with a quote written exactly in the period we are speaking about:

“… it is generally recognized to-day that the Albanians are the most ancient race in southeastern Europe. All indications point to the fact that they are the descendants of the earliest Aryan immigrants who were represented in historical times by the kindred Illyrians, Macedonians, and Epirots”.

“The Albanians are among the very oldest inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula. Classical authors give the names of very many tribes which dwelt in those lands when history dawns.

“The Greeks classed them as “barbarians” and they spoke a non-Greek tongue.They were united in groups under native kings, and of these groups some of the most important were the Macedonians, the Illyrians, and the Epirotes”.

“The sister of Alexander, king of the Molossi, was the mother of Alexander the Great; the men who marched to Babylon, Persia and India were the ancestors of the Albanians”

“The historical heroes of Albania are Alexander the Great, Pyrrhus, and Scanderbeg; and in modern times, if it is allowable to mention one so mean in connection with those great names—Ali Pasha”.

I won’t display all of them because of my scanty time. I know what your answer would be. This collection of quotes is out-dated since its written by scholars who were neither historians nor up-dated with the recent discoveries. I do not claim them as being historians but I want just to draw the attention about what was the opinion of most Europeans in regard with the Macedonia, much time before the ‘Macedonian name dispute” occurred. If the Albanians want to misuse the ancient past for their present agenda, then they would use it by erecting statues of Alexander and Philip like you Greeks and your colleagues from FYROM.

AOAEG says:

“Another proof that Macedonians and Illyrians were different people”.

Oh common! I thought your knowledge was a little more than a cynical denial of every Illyro-Macedonian cultural links. Culturally, Macedonians and Illyrians were similar to one another. The Macedonian ethnogenesis is narrowly related with the Illyrians. It’s not me who is saying that but the ancient testimonies and archeological discoveries as well.

AOAEG says:

“Had they be the same, Macedonians would promote the Illyrian “culture”.

The Parthian kings promoted as well the imported Hellenic culture depth in Asia. I suspect if this fact constitute a safe marker about their real ethnicity.

AOAEG says:

“Does the above in the simplistic Albanian mind constitutes an “argument”?

Stick on the central topic please. Don’t throw words back and forth like a little girl! I suggest you to not misinterpret the content of my post. I was saying that systematic Greek excavations in the heartland of ancient Macedonia revealed an Illyrian culture prior to the Argead expansion in the lower Macedonia. Am I wrong? The argument is incontestable: the Macedonian nation emerged in symbiosis with the Illyrian substratum. Is that hard to put in your thick skull? If yes, I am afraid we are wasting our time for nothing.

AOAEG says:

“What kind of good relations Illyrians of Upper Macedonia? Are you on drugs or something? the relations of Macedonians, both Argeads and the ones from Upper Macedonia with Illyrians were constant conflicts and wars”.

I am not on drugs and I am fully aware what I am saying! The Macedonian kingdom reached its zenith with the incorporation of the autonomous regions of the Western Macedonia, whose Illyrian being is well-attested. I am not rejecting the constant conflicts they had with one another from 8th century B.C up to IVth century B.C. For the sake of truth, we simply cannot ignore that Macedonian nation emerged with the incorporation of Illyrians in the Argead kingdom. The political rivalry says nothing about ethnic nature of them.

AOAEG says:

“Sure!! Thats why not a single Illyrian was ever found in the “most honored ranks” of their army”.

To put it simple I’ve a quiz for you. Who was a princess who headed the Macedonians in wars in the post-Alexander period?

AOAEG says:

“If you want to promote further your self-contradicted claims, at least provide ancient sources where it is clearly stated that: Macedonians identified themselves as Illyrians and versa”.

Good you mention the ancient sources. They are full of passages pointing out the very fact that Macedonians were proud of their Macedonian identity, not matter how the Greeks despised it with the most pejorative terms. The Macedonian ruling elite in start was eager to benefit a Hellenic identity but later on, it kicked out of the window and were proud of its “barbarian” being. Macedonians have to chose between the brightness of Hellenic culture or their backward culture…And they chose simply their ancestral culture, which was the same as that of Illyrians.

AOAEG says:

“Until then your theories remain what they really are… Garbage!!

You’re not accustomed to debate in a normal manner. Maybe this is not your fault…from your childhood you were taught to not show the reverse side of the coin. But, truth as always prevails. I guess you feel a little bit anxious but this is a healthy process in itself. You are gradually passing the narrow imaginary world built up by your politicans. Congrats, then.

P.S: Well, the question on ancient Macedones is wide so I do not think this the proper space to elaborate in its extent. I would be happy if we can continue our debate in another neutral forum in English. Thnx!

Aftoi_Oi_Albanoi_exoun_gelio says:

Definitively, the Albanian national trait is lying and promoting ridiculous theories with no proof.

Had Macedonians and Illyrians “intermingled and became similar peoples”, they wouldnt be portrayed in ancient sources as two unrelated people. Nowhere in ancient sources is stated this silly Albanian Lie about being “similar”.

More ridiculous Albanian lies and misinformation:
-- ” Their culture is very similar.”

Another proof that Macedonians and Illyrians were different people. Had they be the same, Macedonians would promote the Illyrian “culture”. They promoted Greek because it was their own.

-- “Even Greek archaeologists admitted the Illyrian presence in the territory which later became known as Macedonia.”

Does the above in the simplistic Albanian mind constitutes an “argument”? I feel sorry for you. Likewise does he claim “Even Albanian archaeologists admitted the Greek presence in the territory of Macedonia” constitutes a “proof” in your mind that Macedonians were Greeks? For heaven’s sake, learn at least to construct arguments making sense.

-- “The native Illyrian tribes were the first who became subjects of Macedonian kingdom. In other hand, Macedonians from Emathia held good relations with the Illyrians of Upper Macedonia.”

What kind of good relations Illyrians of Upper Macedonia? Are you on drugs or something? the relations of Macedonians, both Argeads and the ones from Upper Macedonia with Illyrians were constant conflicts and wars.I just read plenty of them in the above article.

“The Illyrians were soldiers of Macedonian kings who trusted them in most honored ranks of their army.”

Sure!! Thats why not a single Illyrian was ever found in the “most honored ranks” of their army.

” But the plain fact is that ancient Greeks (to whom you claim to be derived of) never reckoned Macedonians as genuine Greeks. Instead, they ranked Macedonians in the same level as Illyrians and their neihgbours, Thracians. Strange, is not?”

Spoke like a True Albanian. You mean there were Illyrians taking part in the Pan-Hellenic games, being members of the Amphictionies, there were Illyrian Theodorokoi, and there were Greek writers who stated “Illyrians and the rest of Greeks”? Albanians have a wild imagination. Thats for sure.

If you want to promote further your self-contradicted claims, at least provide ancient sources where it is clearly stated that:

-- Macedonians identified themselves as Illyrians and versa.

Until then your theories remain what they really are… Garbage!!

ΑΡΧΑΙΟΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ says:

Really?Are you Albanian or Skopjan and you quote here again your parahistoric ”knowledge”,which you have been taught in your primary school?

Drilon says:

Definitively, Greeks have no shame on amount of their lies! The purpose of this article is to obscure the Illyro-Macedonian links by quoting some pieces out of their contexts. Macedonians and Illyrians had many commonalities since they intermingled with one another during most of ancient period to the extent as they became similar peoples. Their culture is very similar. Even Greek archaeologists admitted the Illyrian presence in the territory which later became known as Macedonia. The native Illyrian tribes were the first who became subjects of Macedonian kingdom. In other hand, Macedonians from Emathia held good relations with the Illyrians of Upper Macedonia. The Illyrians were soldiers of Macedonian kings who trusted them in most honored ranks of their army. But the author of article has neglected these considerations because he wants to make Macedonians genuine Greeks. Well my friend…you can make Macedonians as Greeks as much as you wish. But the plain fact is that ancient Greeks (to whom you claim to be derived of) never reckoned Macedonians as genuine Greeks. Instead, they ranked Macedonians in the same level as Illyrians and their neihgbours, Thracians. Strange, is not?

ΑΡΧΑΙΟΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ says:

Do you want passionately to be repeated,to say the same things,my friend Πύρρε?Don’t you realise that you are and you become,at least,boring at all?

Lefteris says:

If you dont like facts, stick to your distorted Albo history and live with your own lies. Actually even the quote you provided is a foolish distortion of the original quote of Samuel Johnson’s “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel”!!
How typically Albanian to distort famous quotes!!

edmond says:

Leave these crazyness to history, and think how you will deal with the crisis. Thanas Shterngo Rripin. “Sick Nationalism is the last House of disshonest people”

Edessa says:

Your comment is not intelligible. Can you clarify by using better English what exactly is your question?

pirro says:

Dear Sir,

tell me Who was ancient or new historian-author that has remembered with name -- `macedonian tribues`? Where lived Mcedonian tribues? As I know- in place of todays Macedonian state- has been all illyrian tribues like Lykenas (in albanian language does it mean- liqena or they that lives near lake).