Archaeology Magazine Letter to the Editor by Professor Stephen G. Miller
Editor, Archaeology Magazine
36-36 33rd Street
Long Island City, NY 11106
U.S.A.
Dear Sir,
I opened the January/February issue of Archaeology today and eagerly turned to “A Letter from Macedonia” only to discover that it was actually a letter from ancient Paionia – the land north of Mt. Barmous and Mt. Orbelos. Livy’s account of the creation of the Roman province of Macedonia (45.29.7 and 12) makes clear that the Paionians lived north of those mountains (which form today the geographically natural northern limits of Greece) and south of the Dardanians who were in today’s Kosovo. Strabo (7. frag 4) is even more succinct in saying that Paionia was north of Macedonia and the only connection from one to the other was (and is today) through the narrow gorge of the Axios (or Vardar) River. In other words, the land which is described by Matthew Brunwasser in his “Owning Alexander” was Paionia in antiquity.
While it is true that those people were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 359 B.C. (Diodorus Siculus 16.4.2), they were never Macedonians and never lived in Macedonia. Indeed, Demosthenes (Olynthian 1.23) tells us that they were “enslaved” by the Macedonian Philip and clearly, therefore, not Macedonians. Isokrates (5.23) makes the same point. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians who were subdued by Alexander may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia (and so far as I can tell does not seek that name today).
Certainly, as Thucydides (2.99) tells us, the Macedonians had taken over “a narrow strip of Paionia extending along the Axios river from the interior to Pella and the sea”. One might therefore understand if the people in the modern republic centered at Skopje called themselves Paionians and claimed as theirs the land described by Thucydides.
But why, instead, would the modern people of ancient Paionia try to call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Mr. Brunwasser (p. 55) touches on the Greek claims “that it implies ambitions over Greek territory” and he notes that “the northern province of Greece is also called Macedonia.” Leaving aside the fact that the area of that northern province of modern Greece has been called Macedonia for more than 2,500 years (see, inter alios, Herodotus 5.17; 7.128, et alibi), more recent history shows that the Greek concerns are legitimate. For example, a map produced in Skopje in 1992 shows clearly the claim that Macedonia extends from there to Mt. Olympus in the south; that is, combining the ancient regions of Paionia and Macedonia into a single entity.
The same claim is explicit on a pseudo-bank note of the Republic of Macedonia which shows, as one of its monuments, the White Tower of Thessalonike, in Greece.
There are many more examples of calendars, Christmas cards, bumper-stickers, etc., that all make the same claim.
Further, Mr. Brunwasser has reported with approval (International Herald Tribune 10/1/08) the work of the “Macedonian Institute for Strategic Research 16:9”, the name of which refers “to Acts 16:9, a verse in the New Testament in which a Macedonian man appears to the Apostle Paul begging him: ‘Come over into Macedonia, and help us.’” But where did Paul go in Macedonia? Neapolis (Kavala), Philippi, Amphipolis, Apollonia, Thessaloniki, and Veroia (Acts 16:11-17:10) all of which are in the historic Macedonia, none in Paionia. What claim is being made by an Institute based in Skopje that names itself for a trip through what was Macedonia in antiquity and what is the northern province of Greece today?
I wonder what we would conclude if a certain large island off the southeast coast of the United States started to call itself Florida, and emblazoned its currency with images of Disney World and distributed maps showing the Greater Florida.
Certainly there was no doubt of the underlying point of “Macedonia” in the mind of U.S. Secretary of State Edward Stettinius on December 26, 1944, when he wrote:
“The Department [of State] has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This government considers talk of Macedonian ”nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
[Source: U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations vol viii, Washington, D.C., Circular Airgram (868.014/26Dec1944)]
Mr. Brunwasser (a resident of Bulgaria), however, goes on to state, with apparent distain, that Greece claims “Alexander III of Macedon (Alexander the Great) . . . as Greek.”
This attitude mystifies me. What is there to “claim”? Alexander’s great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, was certified as Greek at Olympia and, in the words of the father of history “I happen to know that [the forefathers of Alexander] are Greek” (Herodotus 5.22). Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi (Plutarch, Alexander 4.9; Moralia 105A), the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. If Philip was Greek, wasn’t his son also Greek?
When Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia (Thucydides apud Pal. Anth. 7.45; Pausanias 1.2.2; Diodorus Siculus 13.103) – wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, did he write it in Slavic? When he wrote the Bacchai while at the court of Archelaos did he not write it in Greek even as it has survived to us? Or should we imagine that Euripides was a “Macedonian” who wrote in Slavic (at a date when that language is not attested) which was translated into Greek?
What was the language of instruction when Aristotle taught Alexander? What language was carried by Alexander with him on his expedition to the East? Why do we have ancient inscriptions in Greek in settlements established by Alexander as far away as Afghanistan, and none in Slavic? Why did Greek become the lingua franca in Alexander’s empire if he was actually a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament written in Greek rather than Slavic?
On page 57 of the so-called “Letter from Macedonia” there is a photograph of the author standing “before a bronze statue of Alexander the Great in the city of Prilep.”
The statue is patently modern, but the question is whether the real historic Alexander could have read the Slavic inscription beneath his feet. Given the known historic posterity of Slavic to Greek, the answer is obvious.
While Mr. Brunwasser’s reporting of the archaeological work in Paionia is welcome, his adoption and promotion of the modern political stance of its people about the use of the name Macedonia is not only unwelcome, it is a disservice to the readers of Archaeology who are, I imagine, interested in historic fact. But then, the decision to propagate this historical nonsense by Archaeology – a publication of the Archaeological Institute of America – is a disservice to its own reputation.
Let it be said once more: the region of ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian empire. So were Ephesos and Tyre and Palestine and Memphis and Babylon and Taxila and dozens more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”.
Allow me to end this exegesis by making a suggestion to resolve the question of the modern use of the name “Macedonia.” Greece should annex Paionia – that is what Philip II did in 359 B.C. And that would appear to be acceptable to the modern residents of that area since they claim to be Greek by appropriating the name Macedonia and its most famous man. Then the modern people of this new Greek province could work on learning to speak and read and write Greek, hopefully even as well as Alexander did.
Sincerely,
Stephen G. Miller
Professor Emeritus,
University of California, Berkeley
PS: For a more complete examination of the ancient evidence regarding Paionia, see I. L. Merker, “The Ancient Kingdom of Paionia,” Balkan Studies 6 (1965) 35-54
cc: C. Brian Rose, President, Archaeological Institute of America
Hillary Rodham Clinton, Secretary of State of the United States of America
Dora Bakoyiannis, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Greece
Antonis Samaras, Minister of Culture of Greece
Olli Rehn, European Commissioner for Enlargement
Erik Meijer, Member, European Parliament
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Dear Professor Miller!
It was a pleasure for me to read your letter about Alexander the Great and the name of Macedonia in Archaeology Magazine, which was sent to me by the Greek Embassy in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan.
I support the request of the Greek Embassy to publish your letter in Kyrgyz-Russian Slavic University’s magazine Vestnik.
Our University is holding a conference named The Role of Personality of Alexander the Great in the Development of Eastern and Western Cultures on 04.22-24.2010. Do you mind if we publish your work in Kyrgyzstan? If you don’t, could you please send its bibliography to me?
Sincerely yours,
Professor of Kyrgyz-Russian Slavic University (Bishkek)
President of the Center of Greek Language and Culture Hellas
Milana Lazaridi
Dear Professor Milana Lazaridi
Are you aware of the letter that 357 clasical scholars sent to President Obama, on the issue of Macedonia? Here is a copy of the letter, along with the signatures: http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
Prof. Miller is one of the cosigners and you can contact him from there. You will find several articles from him on this site.
@z petrovski :
Let me check this right dude.
On your post #21, you say among other non-sense stuff:”..maybe he can visit my country and see it it indeed exists. Maybe he can talk to people born in Lerin, Bitola, Prilep or Solun and ask them if they don’t exist.”
Solun is Thessaloniki in some other than greek language.
You claim that Solun is in your country? Are you Greek? Is this a provoke? Is this a joke?
I do not expect you to answer…
Of course if Professor Miller visits Thessaloniki, ppl there will tell him that they exist and that they are Greeks…
I call ALL SKOPJIAN population to combine the use of internet -- archaeological facts -- critical thinking, in order to see the truth and apologise to the whole world about this issue.
PS: Thank you for proving Professor Stephen G. Miller to be right.
Petrovski, I am amazed by your apparent comprehending inability of the texts you are reading.
Dont you ever people read Strabo’s work or your fascist state has prohibited whatever goes against your fascist, state-imposed doctrine. “Macedonia, of course IS A PART OF GREECE”.
But you cannot even distinguish the obvious from the text you are quoting.
In Thessalonike (the original Macedonian name and not the SlavoBulgarian ‘Solun’ like your Bulgarian ilk keeps naming it) Paul was able to convert several of the locals:
And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout GREEKS a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.Acts 17:4
Conclusion: Thessalonike is inhabited by GREEKS.
After Thessalonike he went to Berroia, where:
10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few GREEK women of high standing as well as men.
Acts 17:10,11,12
Conclusion: Berroia, another Macedonian town is inhabited by GREEKS.
Passages like this speak volumes about who the ancient Macedonians truly were and what language they spoke.
The bible mentions the small community of the Jews living in the city of Berroia at the time but it also tells us that “not a few” Greek women and men, indeed of high social standing, believed in his message. The same as we saw had happened earlier in Thessalonike. Now let us think about this:
Paul has been “invited” in his dream while in Troad by a Macedonian man who asked for his help to come to Macedonia. Paul goes to Macedonia, and to our surprise, no “SLAV” is ever mentioned, anywhere. Some Jews, yes, small communities here and there, and everytime Bible mentions that the Macedonian cities are inhabited by Greeks.
So, then, we are left wondering: Why is the Christian bible failing to mention ANY other, non-Greek Macedonians? Because all Macedonians were Greeks. Get over your fascist doctrines. The bible is not supposed to lie: it is not Utrinski Vesnik or Nova Makedonija or some politicaly inspired manifesto on pseudo-makedonism authored by the VMRO untra-nationalist party in Skopje!
Wake Up!!
So no-one from the greeks visited the web sites that mark out St Paul’s journey into Europe? Why not? Are you afraid that the name greece will not appear in the writings but Macedonia does?
So if he traveled from Israel to Europe via Turkey, and the first country he entered was Macedonia, the simple conclusion is that Macedonia bordered with Turkey.
Here is a history lesson as to the greek heritage
Theseus Founds Athens
B.C. 1235
Introduction
The founding of the city of Athens, apart from the mythological lore which ascribes its name to Athene, the goddess, is credited by the Greeks to Sais, a native of Egypt. The real founder of Athens, the one who made it a city and kingdom, was Theseus; an unacknowledged illegitimate child. The usual myth surrounds his birth and upbringing.
Athens
As a virgin, one could be forgiven for assuming Athena had borne no children; this, however, was not the case. Apollodorus, in his Library book 3, tells of how Athena was visiting the lame god Hephaistos to request some weapons, but he was overcome by lust for his sister Athena and tried to rape her. He was unable to catch her and take advantage, but he ejaculated onto her thigh. Athena, disgusted, wiped the divine semen from her and threw it to the ground where Erectheus (or Erecthonius according to some sources) was born the child of Hephaistos, Athena and Gaia.
There is your history. Leave ours alone
If FYROM’S people want to be Macedonians,they can!Just apply to the rest of the Hellenes,like the Athenians or the Spartans or the Corinthians or the Thrasians.It’s easy.To steal an identity is so wrong and dangerous and simply unjust that,we the true decendents will never agree and will eventually lead to conflict.Wise-up!Suppose a new nation near Israel wants to call itself JUDEA,will Israel allow it?Would the rest of the World stand stupidly still, as it does now? Don’t play with our History.We have had enough of your bullshit. Dr.M.D,IOANNIS PSOMIADIS,KATERINI-MAKADONIA-HELLAS.
Nowadays its easiest to see god in front of you than read a comment making sense from a FYROM’s slav. In all my internet years i have never seen a single post from a FYROMian reaching the basic concepts of common sense.
You always get the impression you read something that was written by a mental institute patient.
How can you even have take seriously someone who protests about Greeks changing Slavic toponymies when his apparent limited intelligence prohibits him from asking himself the obvious question “why Slavs changed the Greek toponymies of ancient Macedonians in first place”?
How can you even have take seriously someone whose low intelligence prohibits him from asking himself why slavs also changed the native Dardanian and Illyrian toponymies in first place?
How can you even have take seriously someone whose low intelligence prohibits him from asking himself why slavs also changed the Turkish toponymies and have the audacity now to bitch and moan about others?
But you are excused. For someone from FYROM common sense is a totally unknown term!!!
How can you even have take seriously someone whose low intelligence prohibits him from asking himself why Alexander and Macedonians spread everywhere they passed Greek language and culture? Except if you are from FYROM and live a the paralel universe where Ottoman Turks spread everywhere English, the British from the British empire era spread everywhere French language and so on.
But you are from FYROM and its known, people there are just genetically unable to think. Its no surprise you are the greatest joke this planet has ever witnessed.
The proof
I have read professor Millers article about the Macedonian question in Europe. I have also seen his full CV. It is with no doubt that he is a learned man and an honoured scholar of ancient archaeology.
I see from his CV that he has been to Greece many times, being decorated from the Greek authorities and hold many honorary titles. His reports to the US government states that my country Macedonia does not exist. Maybe he can visit my country and see it it indeed exists. Maybe he can talk to people born in Lerin, Bitola, Prilep or Solun and ask them if they don’t exist. Ask them what their mother first language was.
I have another excercise for you all. How many of the people living in the north americas can name a country starting with the letter U? Scroll to the bottom for a simple and quick answer.
Ask the Bible if St. Paul went to Macedonia or Greece first. Look at the travels of St. Paul. See maps.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/Articles/the_travels_of_paul.htm
http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/roman-empire.html
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Ottoman_empire_1481-1683.jpg
On 3 August 1903, the rebels captured the town of Kruševo and established a revolutionary government, proclaiming the Kruševo Republic -- which was the first modern day republic in the Balkans. The Republic existed only for 10 days -- August 3 to August 13, and was headed by president Nikola Karev.
The Macedonian language was created by the two brothers Saints Cyril and Methodius. Spoken by well over half of the Balkan nations. Is the Greek language this widely spread? I think not.
You may ask as to why the names of the cities is written in Greek. I ask the same question. Why in Greek? Why not in Macedonian? Because you are the ones that have brainwashed by the Greeks for hundreds of years and do not know any different.
Irefutable proof that Macedonia exist as a country and a nation.
Greece is country on its own as Macedonia should be.
Z Petrovski
An northern american country begining with the letter U. UNITES STATES comes to mind
one more professor who does exactly what he is expected to do -his job-
I also feel sorry for the people in Skopje who have been brainwashed for the past 50-60 years
the greek government should not accept any name such as New or Upper Macedonia-since ridiculous claims on our history are made
its insane-then we will only have ourselves to blaim
anna
from Thessaloniki
I agree wholeheartedly with the letter of Professor Miller in Archaelogy Magazine. My sentiments are similar for the letter of the 220 distinguished Professors of ancient history to president Obama. Anyone who has studied ancient history is aware that Alexander considered himself as a Greek. Slavic invaders came in Balkans almost 1000 years after Alexander’s era. How can unrelated people to ancient Greeks, speaking a completely different Slavic language claim the history and legacy of Greek people.
I believe the issue with the slavic citizens of the FYROM is not an historical one. Behind the whole mess lies the irredentist plans against Greek territory. Decades of brainwashing resulted to have today these Balkan thugs of FYROM and their unmeasurable hatred against all their neighbours. Be it Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians. Its a joke that some Slavs attempt to steal the identity and history of Greek people.
Whereas Alexander or other Macedonians of his time were Greeks or not has hardly any relevance for the right of the people of Republic of Macedonia to call themselves whatever they want.
Apparently, they have lived on the territory since 5 or 6th century AD, which would make it, what, some 1500 years. Wouldn’t you think that that gives them right to call themselves Macedonians?
They obviously identify with the name, and have throughout the past few centuries. That wouldn’t have happened if there were other people in the world that called themselves Macedonians. But there weren’t, and there aren’t. Not even in Greece, since as far as I could tell, not too many Greek citizens declare themselves as having Macedonian national identity. Most think of themselves as Greeks, not Macedonians. What mistifies me is the passion that Greece decided to suddenly show about the name. If they liked it so much, you’d think they would have used it. But I guess you can only have one name for your country, and they liked the name Greece better.
Makes me wonder if the whole name game is played exactly so that the idea of anexation, so freely floated by Prof. Miller, has time to settle down and become more acceptable to the world public opinion. It wouldn’t be the first time that some Balkan country harbors secret imperialist ambitions.
ΦΙΛΤΑΤΕ ΙΣΠΑΝΟΟΙΚΟΥΝΤΑ ΧΑΡΗ, ΔΕΝ ΚΑΤΑΛΑΒΑΙΝΩ ΓΙΑΤΙ ΓΡΑΦΕΙΣ ΙΣΠΑΝΙΚΑ ΚΑΙ ΟΧΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ. ΛΕΣ ΠΡΕΠΕΙ ΝΑ ΜΑΘΩΜΕΝ ΤΗΝ ΙΣΤΟΡΙΑΝ ΜΑΣ. ΓΙΑ ΤΗΝ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ ΔΕΝ ΛΕΣ ΤΙΠΟΤΑ. ΓΝΩΡΙΖΟΝΤΑΣ ΤΗΝ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ ΔΥΝΑΜΕΘΑ ΝΑ ΠΡΟΣΕΓΓΥΣΩΜΕΝ ΤΗΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ. ΟΛΗ Η ΙΣΤΟΡΙΑ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΓΡΑΜΜΕΝΗ ΣΤΗΝ ΔΙΚΗ ΜΑΣ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ.
Ο ΨΕΥΔΟΠΑΤΡΙΩΤΙΣΜΟΣ ΣΤΟΝ ΟΠΟΙΟΝ ΑΝΑΦΕΡΕΣΕ ΤΡΕΦΕΤΑΙ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΡΙΕΥΕΙ ΑΠΟ ΤΗΝ ΑΓΛΩΣΣΙΑ. ΚΑΙ ΟΠΩΣ ΕΛΛΕΓΑΝ ΟΙ ΠΑΛΑΙΟΙ ΠΡΟΓΟΝΟΙ ΜΑΣ…… ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΓΛΩΣΣΟΙ.
Η ΙΣΠΑΝΙΚΗ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΚΑΛΗ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ ΑΛΛΑ ΔΕΝ ΕΠΑΡΚΕΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΑΣ ΕΠΙΣΤΗΜΑΣ. ΕΙΝΑΙ ΜΙΑ IDIOTIKH ΔΙΑΛΕΚΤΟΣ……ΚΑΙ ΟΣΟΝ ΑΦΟΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΠΡΟΦΟΡΑ ΤΩΝ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΩΝ ΘΕΛΩ ΝΑ ΜΑΘΩ ΣΕ ΠΟΙΑ ΑΝΑΦΕΡΕΣΕ. ΣΤΗΝ ΠΡΟΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ Η ΣΤΗΝ ΜΕΤΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ. ΤΩΡΑ ΟΙ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΕΣ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ. ΓΝΩΡΙΖΟΥΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ.
ΟΙ ΕΠΙΘΥΜΟΥΝΤΕΣ ΝΑ ΟΝΟΜΑΣΘΟΥΝ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΕΣ ΣΚΟΠΟ ΕΧΟΥΝ ΟΧΙ ΤΟ ΟΝΟΜΑ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ ΑΛΛΑ ΤΟ ΟΝΟΜΑ ΕΛΛΑΣ. ΒΑΘΥΑ ΜΕΣΑΤΟΥΣ ΘΕΛΟΥΝ ΝΑ ΟΝΟΜΑΣΘΟΥΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΟΠΩΣ ΘΕΛΕΙ ΚΑΘΕ ΚΑΛΛΙΕΡΓΙΜΕΝΟΣ ΑΝΘΡΩΠΟΣ.
ΑΝ ΕΝΑΣ ΑΝΘΡΩΠΟΣ ΔΕΝ ΓΝΩΡΙΖΗ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ, ΔΕΝ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΑΣ. ΑΠΕΝΑΝΤΙΑΣ, ΑΥΤΟΣ Ο ΟΠΟΙΟΣ ΓΝΩΡΙΖΕΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΣ ΕΧΗ ΓΕΝΗΘΗ ΣΕ ΑΛΛΑ ΜΕΡΗ ΚΑΙ ΑΠΟ ΓΟΝΕΕΣ ΑΓΛΩΣΣΟΥΣ.
YO SE QUE TODOS LOS ESPANIOLES LES GUSTA APRENDER GRIECO.
“Constantine”, that is exactly their business. They are all professors of ancient Greek-Roman history and its their duty to express their disgust on the rape of history that a bunch of Fascist thugs from FYROM try to achieve. The difference is they know what they are talking about while people like you have no clue about it.
Vilhelmina,
i feel deeply sorry for you. The same also happens also with all the other products of a fascist educational system, that of FYROM, designed to produce people like you. People with no critical ability, live to parrot blindly what someone has stuck inside their brains, a whole populace always in check, always in denial of the reality and the most obvious fact.
Each time I’ve read comments by people like you, I’ve had to throw up my hands in frustration. Certainly freedom of speech is a right for anyone, as much stupid his/er opinion is but you simply abuse the priviledge.
How far more stupid can someone be to believe that “Conquering” people is a factor of one’s Ethnicity? Hello Houston, is there anything working inside that head??
Does it means Spartans had a Different ethnicity from Athenians because at some specific time they conquered them?
Does it means Lyncestians, Orestae, Elimiotes etc were a different ethnicity from Macedonians because at some specific time Philip conquered them?
All you lobotomised mental cases from FYROM are exactly the problem in this dispute. You have become the laughing stock of the world but you are too stupid to realize it.
Are you sure you know what are you talking about?!?!?!? Are you?!?!? Just were did you find all that crap?!?!? Are you really a universitu profesor?!?? Just what sientific and historic facts do you have to teach your students. And for once let us end this stupid and ignorant fight that Greeks are provocing. Alexandar The Great was Macedonian, he loved and he respected and he admired the Greeks but HE CONQUERDE THEM!!! End of story!
Mind your own business professor and leave the Balkans alone.
Pavlo u have a peanat brain, so i dout we can discuss the matter, i say to u that macedonians are greek because for 4000 years they spoke the greek language they believed in the greek gods, they had the greek calture, and u say me….so what????english kings spoke french too, SO????? u compare a 4000years (of known history, the story goes even deeper to the past) with a banch of kings in england that spoke french?? are u serius??and event if u could compare this example with this, i am sure there are 10000 other examples that english kings spoke english, french kings spoke french, german kings spoke german and so on, u tell me 1 thins (of little importanse) to controverse with my point for gods shake. U dont event know what the word nation means in the dictionary, its a group of ppl that share the same language the same religon and the same calture…Macedonia is a GREEK REGION and u like it or not its a HISTORICAL FACT FOR 4000 YEARS NOW, as i said for ppl like u the only thing that can convinse them is a label that says greek on my ancestors. U say Ferom is macedonia,hahahaha i ve never seen ancient manuscripts in your language, and one more important thing WHATS THE DIFFRENSE between YOUR language , bulgarian language and russia??? u exist about 70 years after the seperetion of ygoslavia, u are a new born country and u try to claim my history that existed for 4000 years, well Pavlo u know nothing, u are a joke, a 70years new born country like Furom trying to teach greece history lessons hahahahahahahaa, i pitty you, if great alexander lived today U COULDNT EVEN TALK TO HIM with ur slavic language, when he conquered u in ancient time i wish he had wipe you all, because u are liers you know it, you try really hard to make it true with propaganda, and most importantly history is the only thing we have as people, history it what define us through time, we make our own history…so try to make your own history. Well great alexander had conquerd egypt too, i dont see egyptians saying that egypt is macedonia, ofc not they have a history, they were captured by great alexander for some time but still they are egyptians, they admire great alexander, but they dont say LIKE U do, that everyone is nothing we are the real macedonians, well NO u are a joke, macedonia is a GREEK region and it will always be
Pavlo,
Based on your demonstrable incompetence to raise a rational argument, i believe you should visit your local bookstore and obtain any book related to the issue “How to avoid commiting Fallacious Arguments and how to make sense”.
Your first wannabe “argument” involving the royal house of England demonstrates further the Greekness of Macedonia. The ordinary Macedonians spoke Greek. The ordinary British didnt. Thanks for the tip anyway. You just proved the opposite of your claim.
I would ask what is a “archeological ‘artifax'” since such a word does not even exist but due to the absurbity of the rest of your claims i do not even bother.
Does in your imaginary world the fact that Leonidas is entitled “King of Sparta” prohibits him from being a Greek?
Really, how old are you?
D.
Eartbound!!??!
Many Kings and Queens of England have spoken French language, Royal Family of Belgium have spoken French since their establishment and you know what? They are not French!!
You and Profesor Miller should try and dig deeper to find some archeological artifax’s stating Alexander King of Greece!!?? You know what? You may be digging for the rest of your life and you wont find!
Go and watch “My Fat Greek Wedding” end enjoy it
Based on Profesor Miller’s knowladge (and experiance), todays Americans should not be allowed to call themselves Americans just because they moved (ocupied) there couple of hudred years ago, and also the Native Americans did not speak English or French.
Why should people who live within the territories of Macedonia, despite their religious belives and language they speak, not be allowed to call themselves Macedonian??
sapo what are u talking about??? macedonia is greek, great alexander’s father was greek, his mother was greek, he spoke the greek language , he believed in the greek gods, he had the greek calture, WHAT ELSE DO U WANT? a label that says greek on him??? well sapo macedonia had no bulgarian origins either, nor ferum origins, yes it might be captured by other nations, but it is free again. and macedonia is not a country, its a region in greece. The only problem is that most of u have a peanut brain that see a movie and think this is the truth, read a poster and say this is the truth,,,,well NO the truth is in history and not in hollywood , america, coca cola, read learn and then speak, and when i say read i dont mean from a “historian” that lived 10-100-200 years ago, but 1.000 or 1.500 years ago and then come and say me that macedonia is not greek i dare u. and sapo that macedonian songs u say that were in bulgaric , well…i am from greece, if i conquer bulgary and start singing in greek, well then bulgary will be greek now ???? well NO it will be still bulgary. 4.000 years in macedonia a Greek region they were speaking greek and u come after 4.000 years to tell me that in the WW2 when macedonia (a greek region) was captured they song bulgarian songs..so???
Hey guys, has anyone from you been in Republic of Macedonia?
Which is the only nation that speaks their “language” (invented by the communists in the 50’s): …Bulgarian.
No matter who first found the land, lived there long ago, died and no desandents were left in the same teritory. For the last 1000 years (until after WWII when state of Macedonia was artificially created and included in former Yugoslavia)the people living there have always been and still continue to speak Bulgarian ; until 1950’s they were also calling themselves Bulgarian. Listen to the old Macedonian songs and you’ll know what I’m talking about. Macedonia suffered a lot, Turks did unthinkable atrocities there in the early 20th century, all surrounding neighbours are claiming its theirs. As one old historian said: Macedonia is the most romantic part of the Bulgarian history.
Peace to everybody and let Macedonians be a new “nation” if they want it but let’s not forget the historic truth.
Congratulations to prof. Miller.
Splendid letter, based on solid historical facts, with a splendid sauce of biting humor and bright spirit!
(The last paragraph is really marvelous, sharp as George Bernard Shaw’s biting remarks! Macedonians are, and always were Greeks; if the Skopje Slavs think or want to be Macedonians, that means they want to be Greeks; they are welcomed!)
Congratulations, one more time. Seems logic, knowledge and honesty continu to coexist in our world.
NO matter what the evidence to the contrary, the Skopjean government in FYROM will continue to jive and jab its way through the truth destrying as much as it can in the process. This “debate” is not about the truth but about who can “win” the post modern propaganda battle and who can form the beliefs of the souless heartless mindless masses.
Prof Miller and others can prove beyond any doubt again and again what Macedon/Macedonia really is. It matters not for the envious and mindless masses who want to believe anything to the contrary.
As an American who lived in Thessaloniki and worked in the Balkans for more than a decade; I applaud your work. I understand your sarcasim which I beleive that Sakis misunderstood. In the sphere of fantasy, that is the only way for them to call themselves Macedonians. I thought that I understood the issue but am ashamed that only after reading your article I have learned that what I knew was merely superficial, so I thank you for the lesson. Just think when there have been so many programs trying to enlighten one nation of the Balkans to see the “Face of the Other” thier neighbor. There is one nation that sees the other as themselves.
Christel
“Allow me to end this exegesis by making a suggestion to resolve the question of the modern use of the name “Macedonia.” Greece should annex Paionia “…
Is this a war invitation?
Listen Mr. Professor Emeritus, your country has done enough to destroy the Balkan area during the war of Yugoslavia. You should limit your arguments to the historical data (very good jop by the way!) and avoid provocations by “annexing Paionia”.
Peace is need in Balkans. Not war invitations from your luxury office in the
University of California, Berkeley.
Sakis
Gracias por la aportación. Soy griego que vivo en España y muchas veces tengo la pregunta sobre el asunto de “Macedonia”. Necesitamos aprender nuestra historia y defender la verdad tal como es y sin pseudopatriotismos .
Gracias de nuevo,
haris